These are likely to temporarily stop the feeling of such mental pains- problems aren’t going to be resolved this way.
So what’s the point of these higher states if they don’t resolve problems?
But can cessation of perception be called as jhana? There is some strange things about it:
- all other formless jhana has “dimension (ayatana)” in their name, while cessation of perception do not
- other jhana have corresponding rebirth-realm, while rebirth-realm of cessation of perception is debated (KV 15.10 SuttaCentral)
Also, i am quite confounded on this section of MN 59, what is pleasure that is not pleasant feeling? please help 
By Ven. Sujato
It’s possible that wanderers who follow other paths might say: ‘The ascetic Gotama spoke of the cessation of perception and feeling, and he includes it in happiness. What’s up with that?’ When wanderers who follow other paths say this, you should say to them: ‘Reverends, when the Buddha describes what’s included in happiness, he’s not just referring to pleasant feeling. The Realized One describes pleasure as included in happiness wherever it’s found, and in whatever context.’”
Well that’s a misapprehension of them. They provide access to the innermost layers, allows the mind to be ‘malleable enough’ for insight to penetrate. They also show up the defilements. I also think they give taste of what the mind of an arahanth is like and that’s the target and therefore the path to follow which leads to that state, but permanently! I think the bodisattva was followed that memory, and it led to the permanent state (‘permanent’ as in until the death of an arahanth).
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Please see my post, above. 
My initial post was intended to be a reasoned argument attempting to show that the EBTs do suggest one can feel one’s body at least in some jhanas. However, I came across the comment below, which helped me decide that I didn’t need to debate this topic here.
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Read through the above but could not see what you’re talking about. Please post the quote as a reply or tag me and I’ll happily have a look.
That’s right, the only permanent solution is ending of mental fermentations (asavas) but even so it still helps significantly.
From my experience I equate this to the ending of negative unconscious impulses but the word asava is translated differently and interpreted differently.
There are many countless benefits of entering into higher states even if they don’t permanently resolve a problem it would still help out.
The achievement of the four jhanas helped The Buddha realize the three knowledges, the third being the ending of mental fermentations (asavas) which was the solution to the ending of suffering (from MN 36).
The benefits of the four jhanas are mentioned extenisvely in the suttas though not the ultimate goal which is ending of mental fermentations.
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Furthermore, a mendicant—ignoring the perception of the dimension of nothingness and the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception—focuses on the oneness dependent on the signless immersion of the heart. Their mind becomes eager, confident, settled, and decided in that signless immersion of the heart. They understand: ‘Even this signless immersion of the heart is produced by choices and intentions.’ They understand: ‘But whatever is produced by choices and intentions is impermanent and liable to cessation.’ Knowing and seeing like this, their mind is freed from the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, and ignorance. When they’re freed, they know they’re freed. They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’ They understand: ‘Here there is no stress due to the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, or ignorance. There is only this modicum of stress, namely that associated with the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’ They understand: ‘This field of perception is empty of the perception of the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, and ignorance. There is only this that is not emptiness, namely that associated with the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’ And so they regard it as empty of what is not there, but as to what remains they understand that it is present. That’s how emptiness is born in them—genuine, undistorted, and pure.
Whatever ascetics and brahmins enter and remain in the pure, ultimate, supreme emptiness—whether in the past, future, or present—all of them enter and remain in this same pure, ultimate, supreme emptiness. So, Ānanda, you should train like this: ‘We will enter and remain in the pure, ultimate, supreme emptiness.’ That’s how you should train.” SuttaCentral
Very interesting @Mat, thank you. However, did you not see that I was quite specific with my request - asking for evidence of any arahant ever being described as having dukkha? The English looked as if thats what it may have been talking about, which is why it’s important to look at the Pāli:
‘Here there is no stress due to the perception of the dimension of nothingness or the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.
‘ye assu darathā ākiñcaññāyatanasaññaṃ paṭicca tedha na santi, ye assu darathā nevasaññānāsaññāyatanasaññaṃ paṭicca tedha na santi, atthi cevāyaṃ darathamattā yadidaṃ—There is only this modicum of stress, namely that associated with the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’
imameva kāyaṃ paṭicca saḷāyatanikaṃ jīvitapaccayā’ti.
So, this is not what as I was asking for, as you can see. Is this your only claim of evidence?
Also do you or anyone here know more about this word daratha? The PED gives this:
anxiety, care, distress
But I’d like to know more.
I find it possibly very significant that he says there is only a modicum of daratha which is “associated with the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.”. This may in fact support my position. Remember, I was proposing that dukkha generally refers specifically to emotional affect. With this qualification of this type of daratha only being associated with the 6 senses, I wonder it this may be talking about negative sensory affect, which is as I said not eradicated by the Noble Eightfold Path while one is living.
To answer this would require an extensive understanding of the use of daratha across the EBT’s. Anyone?
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Their physical and mental stress,
Tassa kāyikāpi darathā pavaḍḍhanti, cetasikāpi darathā pavaḍḍhanti;torment,
kāyikāpi santāpā pavaḍḍhanti, cetasikāpi santāpā pavaḍḍhanti;and fever grow.
kāyikāpi pariḷāhā pavaḍḍhanti, cetasikāpi pariḷāhā pavaḍḍhanti.And they experience physical and mental suffering.
So kāya_dukkhampi_ ceto_dukkhampi_ paṭisaṃvedeti. SuttaCentral
Later in that sutta (MN149) stress, torment and fever cease, and physical and mental dukkha are replaced by pleasant physical and mental feelings. It appears that stress, torment and fever are aspects of dukkha, and that when they cease, then dukkha also ceases.
Note that in the Arrow Sutta both the first and second arrows include reference to dukkha, so it appears that dukkha includes both physical and mental aspects. I assume that when aversion/resistance to unpleasant physical feelings cease, then those feelings cease to be experienced as dukkha. So in that sense dukkha is just “in the mind”.
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According to DN22 (and elsewhere), dukkha ultimately results from pañcupādānakkhandhā the ‘5 clinging aggregates’.
Of the five aggregates, 1 is material (rūpa), 4 are immaterial. Dukkha can arise in connection with either material or immaterial phenomena.
Since arhants are, I think, free of clinging (upadāna-) and cankers (āsava-) in respect to the 5 aggregates, I would assume dukkha does not arise for them. In other words, theirs is effectively an experience of merely the pañcakkhandhā ‘the five aggregates’.
I warmly welcome correction if this view seems wrong.
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@Mat you often seem to give quotes without any explanation from yourself, without context, and so on. I wish you would discuss more when you try to make a point, it owuld make it much less hard work to follow your conversation and receive what you mean to communicate. I cannot follow what you’re saying. Who is it in your quote who has mental suffering, someone who is already an arahant?
SN22. 48 makes the distinction between clinging and non-clinging aggregates, and it seems that only the latter remain for the Arahant because clinging has ceased. And of course dukkha is summarised as the clinging aggregates in descriptions of the first Noble Truth, so when dukkha ceases then so do clinging aggregates.
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Yes, it is a very interesting distinction.
To muddy the waters somewhat though, in SN 22.122, the Venerable Sāriputta tells the Venerable Mahākoṭṭhhita that an arhant should still attend to the pañcupādānakkhandhā, seeing them as anicca, dukkha etc.
How can arhants do this if they no longer experience the ‘5 clinging aggregates’?
Yes, that’s a bit confusing, particularly because SN22. 122 goes on to say “Although for an Arahant there is nothing further to do… …” If clinging has ceased for the Arahant, how can there still be clinging aggregates? 
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