Use of drugs for meditation

The Watercooler
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One thing I am seeing missing in this conversation, as a whole, is the idea of syncretism. Yeah in terms of strict Theravada (and most other Buddhist schools), psychedelics are not Buddhist. But I don’t know of a single Buddhist culture that is strictly Buddhist, not even Thailand with its statistics of 98% Buddhist (they have their own shamanic-like traditions that Buddhism syncretises with). Buddhism has never been a purist religion and I think it is weird sometimes how much we try to make it such in the west.

We can have our own syncretisms… including western psychotherapeutic uses of psychedelics and MDMA. Or people exploring something shamanic with a proper shamanic teacher while still considering themselves Buddhist, or go and practice at a Santo Daime place. Yes, keep these separate and don’t necessarily confuse them as Dhamma. But these things may still be a part of a Buddhist practitioner’s inner spiritual journey and who are we to judge…? Many things that aren’t Dhamma can serve as support for Dhamma.

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I’ve done many different practices after I first made sure to have a firm footing in T8FP, taking care in research beforehand, listening to the silent mind, using reason, intuition and imagination when doing the exercises.

No, never been to any retreats, but I recommend both ways or any way that fits your personal style. Where it works in your meditation depends on what you consider right meditation.

People jazz up what is right or proper according to this or that sentence or favourite sutta, or teacher, but listening directly to Buddha, isn’t interesting at all. That’s funny because Buddha never died :purple_heart:

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I’d say that one difficulty would be the precept concerning intoxicans. I don’t know weather these substances should be considered as medicines (as they are in indigenous cultures or by researchers that study them for example at Imperial College London) or intoxicants.
Hence my interest in holotropic work instead.

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I practice traditional Thai medicine, marijuana is listed in the Thai pharmacopeia as medicine, in case anyone was curious. And the Thai medical tradition very much considers itself “Buddhist medicine.”

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Interesting. Psychedelics seem to be safer than that according to this study. In fact they seem to be the safest drug of them all

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I don’t consider meditation to be bypassing, but it can be used to transcend suffering here and now, dissociate for a while, and then have to come back to the same physical body. And adapting a style of dissociating may have the opposite effect, because the suffering increases in the body and becomes even worse, so then it becomes the preferred style to practice Jhana, and then everybody thinks highly about the brave monks’ efforts.

I have a lot of friends in several monasteries, and they can sit as long as they like, I have my own stuff to do :pray:

Live and let live :heart:

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Sitting for hours is worthless if one isn’t making an effort to change their day to day lifestyle through devotion, generosity, virtue and restraint, but I’m not sure psychedelics would help those people beyond possibly frightening or overwhelming them so deeply that they reevaluate what they are willing to relinquish in order for things to change. But that effect is not a guarantee, and, as anyone who has gain an altering perspective from psychedelics knows, those effects do not necessarily withstand the test of time and circumstance, so it would likely require repeated use to, once again, bring that perspective back to light. And with that one is training themselves to rely on what is inherently unreliable.

So, even if one is pushed towards the Dhamma as a result of what they gained from a psychedelic experience, in the end, it is still an intention that requires an ongoing and accumulative effort to avoid what is unwholesome. So, while the substance may have prompted them to alter their efforts, they are of no use when discerning what is essential to the extent that there is development in Dhamma. And by that I mean, if someone knows what they are trying to wear away for further understanding they won’t need a substance to help emphasize it. Either they know and will repeatedly pursue it or they don’t know and continue their journey to find a comfortable lifestyle.

This is not to knock what indigenous peoples continue to do with psychedelics, nor of what they share with those who come to them for spiritual fulfillment, but my point is that in order to develop in Dhamma, one must face the nature of their situation without aid of any relief that they did not immediately earn through knowledge. That is essential for progress from what I’ve experienced.

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A person with a guaranteed number of years ahead of them has the luxury of not being pressured by urgency, but no human in this world has that, so in the very least, a person has to honest with themselves about their reasons for experimentation. For those who know about Buddhism - who have thoroughly explored the meanings in the suttas from an intellectual standpoint, and have a clear understanding of what must be taken up in order for things to change - experimentation is avoidance of what they’ve already understood to be the work. For example, a person may see that they have to bring their behavior within certain confines and begin to avoid what may have not previously been understood to be a problem. That part can be very difficult, and will certainly contribute to discomfort and anxiety, having lost outlets for avoidance of that unpleasant feeling. However, that is where faith comes in, whereby even though it doesn’t feel good from the point of view of that previous mode of being, you endure it out of the trust you developed in the triple gem. Now, those who cannot bear that situation of increased uncertainty will inevitably look for a more soothing route, for which psychedelics can play an important role. But what is extremely critical here is to come to terms with what is actually being gained by seeking out relief from the pressure and uncertainty that build as a result of taking up precepts and restraint, and whether or not those gains are contributing towards development in Dhamma or just unique way to tap back into sensuality.

So, a person has to be very honest with themselves about their reason for taking any measure of relief, even if they are convinced it is an aid to the goal of Dhamma. Why don’t they want to endure the pain of restraint? Why don’t they want endure the pain of doubt/uncertainty? Why do they think they are entitled to a comfortable Dhamma experience? According to the Buddha, we’ve been appeasing the mind for innumerable lifetimes, so why would development in Dhamma follow that trend? That honesty is so important, because it could the difference between an authentic pursuit that produces the right view and one that inadvertently remains where it always was.

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There are a couple of sentences that one hears coming from all corners of the world. The first one comes from the powers that be;

We have a crisis with the global surge of mental illnesses in society!

The second comes from the spiritual/religious outlet:

There seems to be a surge in the amounts of people waking up nowadays …!?

Maybe we don’t have a choice anymore, that we are forced to get our act together, or else we’re out.

If I were 16 years old today, wonder what I would do … Listen to those who say: Relax, it’s all in your mind, or to those who say; Forget about resting, because facts of today show us very clearly that whatever they think they do or contribute with, it hasn’t worked.

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The use of drugs for mental healthcare should be directed by relevant medical doctors. It is nothing to do with Buddhist meditation (such as right view and mindfulness).

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Thanks so much for providing responses that are well-reasoned and grounded in Dhamma and
for being explicit so there is little to no cause for ambiguity.

:anjal:

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Anymore? What would you consider different now than 2500 years ago? Or a million years ago? Existence is an inherently dangerous situation. To be born is literally to ascend in the direction of inevitable descent. That was always the way things would turn out. Unfortunately, due to the fact that information has a cumulative effect upon the impression that is “the world”, past and present are riddled with broken promises, baseless hopes, impossible dreams and seemingly endless possibilities, all taking for granted that sanctity from an external source was even possible.

So, while I respect your decision to see this situation as choiceless, it will always be the responsibility of the individual to make the effort to not depend external conditions for their composure or safety. What I think many people face in this contemporary world where that internal development of composure and virtue are deeply undervalued, is a “crisis of recognition” whereby they’ve spent a lifetime calculating precisely what they need from an external perspective in order to be happy, only to come face to face with the fact that it is nearly impossible to consistently generate that pleasing externality. With that, they seek information about how to go about altering how the external world, which they’ve already taken for granted as their only source of comfort, impacts their internal inclinations.

In short, it seems nowadays, in a world of one-click relief, that a person seeking a spiritual path has a few stages of realization to pass through prior to having the outlook that something like the Dhamma is even plausible. Where initially they may have felt entitled to a pleasant and fair external environment (and suffered deeply on account of it), they segue into finding a way to make that externality less painful, which is still nowhere near where the Dhamma would apply. From there, it takes a whole other shift for a person to consider, “Wait, what if it is my desires and preferences that is putting me in such painful opposition to circumstances?” That is right question, and with that attitude a person would cease to consider any relief as applicable to this new perspective. There is no longer a need to make the world more comfortable.

This scenario is timeless, though, but I do agree that nowadays it is far more complex. I just think any altering substance is nothing but that general depressurization of what is pressuring, and while that can be extraordinarily beautiful and comforting, it is not creating the conditions for the drying out the craving that drives the management of that pressure, and what a person is essentially doing by opting for that relief, is separating themselves from the responsibility that the eightfold path offers.

Reminds me of simile of the six murderer from SN 35.238, which was an intimate companion that supports you and keeps you safe only to kill you himself. Again, just be honest about your reasons for doing it so in the very least any misleading perspective will be immediately recognizable.

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We all can be reached here and now 24/7.

There are no secret or hidden teachings anymore, it’s all out here, for good or for worse.

The insanity from developing the self has grown to an extent where one can say that society is on the brink of psychosis. In medical terms: The left brain hemisphere has been valued over the right brain hemisphere, and thereby society is in a constant state of unbalance.

That’s three huge differences.

Like Dr Iain McGilchrist elaborates on this in his excellent book; The Master and his Emissary.

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Reached? A person can only be reached to the extent they opt for means of accessibility - or to say it another way: to the extent they are exposed and welcoming to what appears at the sense doors - and it is through that access and/or exposure that the individual then chooses relief, whether through something that would decrease unpleasantness or increase pleasantness. I’m not denying that experience is much more condensed for the average individual, but an individual can manage that access and exposure to varying degrees, and most have a great deal of control over that.

Yes, it is much harder than it was 2500 years ago, but the principle of managing one’s pain through the environment is a timeless: sensuality. I’m only harping on this to avoid obscuring this principle, which is important if we’re going to apply the general descriptions in the suttas to the highly proliferated and highly diverse landscape of the contemporary experience.

I’m not sure how you see this connected to the use of drugs, but I assume you mean in the sense to manage the intensity of the pressure. That’s fine, but at what point does the individual accept that the continuity - the presence - of arisen suffering is not only their responsibility, but that it their problem to solve as well?

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Psychedelic treatments reports about cases where patient make the breakthrough to what they call “inner healer, teacher, guru”, and the journey towards full healing runs from the core of being.

That’s interesting.

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I am not saying otherwise. My point is that a) having a certain mental health stability sometimes is necessary for Dhamma practice (which is what I mean when I say it can serve as a support for Dhamma), and therefore b) in that context it is not in violation of the 5th precept, which therefore c) we need to be careful not to stigmatise psychedelic use among practitioners because they may be doing it for medical purposes.

And if a Buddhist is seeking a legitimate shaman in a tradition that uses psychedelics, I am also saying that it is okay to explore (if you don’t have the 5th precept) and not be exclusively hanging out in one tradition. And that syncretism is something Buddhists have done since the beginning. And perhaps said spiritual healing with said shaman might also serve as a support for dhamma.

Lastly, I do have tons of caveats here. Like legitimacy of the spiritual practice versus the dangers of postmodern new age spiritual pastiche… or confusing the psychedelic experience with the dhammic result, the dangers of spiritual bypassing in certain new age communities, and so forth. My point is just to acknowledge the spiritual and psychological value of psychedelics for a Buddhist (like healing psychological or spiritual wounds, loosening our right grips on reality and developing faith), not saying everyone should do it or that it is always a good idea.

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You have to be ready to trancend all. Its possible. TRUE DHAMMA IS ABOVE truths

But there is insights through whatever you use. Where ever you live sended as karma. Let it be. The force of karma will make you do things

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Are you joking, or is this a real thing? :thinking: