Vedana translated as 'experience'by Ajahn Brahm

I recently heard Ajahn Brahm say that he prefers the word experience to feeling for vedana. Does anyone know his reasoning behind this?

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Perception and feelings are conjoined not disjoint hence it is better if we all use one terminology.

I think I heard this talk… I interpreted/inferred that by using the word experience as in “I experienced xyz” it broadens it beyond feelings as in just “touchy feely emotions”. ie that it is more inclusive.

just my personal take.

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Could be a function of temperament, if he tends to experience emotionally rather than mentally? That would conform to my impression from watching/listening to a few of his talks.

It might be because a lot of people tend to not distinguish between ‘feeling’ and ‘emotion’—considereing ‘feeling’ as an exact synonym for ‘emotion.’

While not necessarily easy to explain, emotions are mental occurrences that have specific labels, of which everyone probably has experienced at one time in their life. They are purely an emotional reaction to a physical or non-physical event. Examples of emotions are: anger, jealousy, fear, love/infatuation, shame, guilt, joy, etc.

Feelings, on the other hand, is anything that can be felt, and more often then not is an involuntary reaction, usually due to an external source (compared to subjective and oftentimes due to an internal source for emotions). A good example of a feeling is pain, which is in no way an emotion; or stress, exhaustion, disbelief, doubt and… dukkha (which is painful feeling). :slight_smile:

The PTS Pāli-English Dictionary also translates vedanā as ‘sensation,’ which is quite accurate.

Vedanā (f.) [fr. ved°: see vedeti; cp. Epic Sk. vedanā] feeling, sensation (see on term, e. g. Cpd. 14 Mrs. Rh. D. B. Psy., ch. iv.) D i.45; ii.58 (cp. Dial. ii.54), 66; iii.58, 77, 221, 228, 238 (°upādāna); S iii.86 sq.; A i.39, 122, 141; ii.79, 198, 256; iii.245 sq., 450; iv.301, 385; Kh iii. (tisso v.); Sn 435, 529, 739, 1111; Nd1 109; Nd2 551 (tisso v.); Ps i.6, 50 sq., 145 sq., 153 sq.; ii.109 sq., 181 sq.; Vbh 135 sq., 294, 401, 403 sq.; Dhs 3, 1348; Nett 27, 65 sq.; 83, 123, 126; Tikp 246, 317 sq., 345 sq.; Vism 460 sq.; DA i.125; VbhA 13 sq., 39 sq., 80, 178, 193, 221 (°ânupassanā, in detail), 263 sq., 382 (various). — Three modes of feeling (usually understood whenever mention is made of “tisso vedanā”): sukhā (pleasant), dukkhā (painful) adukkha-m-asukhā (indifferent) […]

Soucre: PTS Pāli-English Dictionary

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Not only feelings but other four aggregates are experiences since it is the way beings express the subjective side of encounters between sense bases and objects. This is my understanding please.
With Metta

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In the recordings I have from Ajahn Brahm he explained that experience is a less emotionally charged word. In the experience is just the experience (not the emotion, that comes later).

It’s taken me a while to warm to it, but I find it a useful variation to consider. It certainly makes neither-painful-nor-pleasant vedana clearer in my mind.

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As I understand Ajahn Brahm the reason why he prefers “experience” is that, as others already mentioned, he wants to make a distinction from “emotion” which is widely taken as a synonym for “feelings”. I can understand very well the reasoning behind his choice, still this is the (so far only) point where I clearly disagree with Ajahn Brahm. :grin:

My understanding of vedana how it is explained in the suttas is that it describes the tone of our feeling or experience, whether it is pleasant or unpleasant or in-between. It also does not mean feeling in the sense of bodily feelings like touch, itch or the like. It just describes the quality. Pleasant, unpleasant, neutral.

I find that “experience” is too broad, too inclusive, experience has more qualities to it than just the pleasantness or unpleasantness.

That’s my understanding. :anjal:

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One way to analyze it is that 1st comes sensing, contact as stimulation of sense organ (as in the phasa link of Dependent Co-arising / pattica-samuppada). Then the feeling-tone is an initial aspect of how what’s sensed is “experienced” by the mind. I.e. vedana as the step immediately succeeding phasa. “Sensation” fits as vedana in the sense of perceived quality of response to the bare sensing of the contact (stimulation).

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I’m not 100% keen on ‘experience’ but looking back at old notes from sutta classes, I see Ajahn was using ‘sense experience’ before it was shortened. This is clearer in my mind as you then have the 6 sense experiences.

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I find it rather confusing. Isn’t “experience” what the five aggregates as a whole represent?

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Though vedana is only one aspect of experience at the sense bases.

There’s is the 18 kinds of sense experience. Pleasant, painful and neutral for each of the 6 senses.
Ie a pleasant sight. A unpleasant taste. A neutral touch sensation

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But as much as I understand it the vedana aspect refers particularly to the pleasant, unpleasant or neutral quality of them.

Anyway, I couldn’t agree with Ajahn Brahm on this. :rofl:

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I thought of ‘enjoyableness’ or ‘agreeableness’. Both are real words(!). What do you think @sabbamitta? :smile:

with metta

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Difficult to say! I’m not a native English speaker - these words don’t sound familiar to me. And it seems they represent only one side of the coin…

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In what other sense do you take Vedana, then? :slightly_smiling_face:

with metta

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It can be pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral.

My translation would be something like the feeling tone or feeling quality or quality of experience.

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Using two words allows for a more descriptive term. I like feeling tone too as it narrows it down and captures the sense that this is happens very early in the sensory processing.

with metta

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‘Agreeable’ and ‘disagreeable’ age good adjectives to convey the meaning. @Mat @sabbamitta

Bodily agreeable feeling sukha = kāyikā sukhā vedanā
Bodily painful/disagreeable feeling dukkha = kāyikā dukkhā vedanā
Mentally agreeable feeling somanassa = cetasikāsukhāvedanā
Mentally painful/disagreeable feeling domanassa = cetasikā dukkhā vedanā
Indifferent/neutral feeling upekkhā = adukkha-m-asukhā vedanā