Very misleading translation of DN 33 on Suttacentral

[mikenz66]

@Senryu

Sorry I only skimmed this when I originally read it as I was more focused on hearing your points in your own words. But now I have read your source, and it is not what you said. That quote you gave is not about the Buddha’s teachers. It is about “some recluses and brahmins”,

Sorry. Perhaps I should have started a new paragraph when I said " In DN1 he talks about how some develop wrong views due their meditative attainments" because, clearly, it is not about his teachers.

Well, OK, perhaps we need to go and find some of the other passages that talk about concentration practice of other contemplatives. There are a few, including a converstation between Jains and, I believe, Sariputta, but I don’t have time to look for them right now.

If the other contemplatives were not adept at concentration practices, why did so many of them become arahants so quickly after hearing a little wisdom? Wheras non-contemplatives became stream enterers, and then had to work on concentration.

[Mat]

@Senryu are you trying to state something here with your insistence on saying only the Buddha practiced jhana?

[Senryu]

@Mat

@Senryu are you trying to state something here with your insistence on saying only the Buddha practiced jhana?

I am not aware of ever making that claim. He practiced plenty of other things. I don’t know what you are referring to.

[Mat]

@Senryu

He practiced plenty of other things.

I didn’t say the Buddha practiced only jhana; I asked why you seem intent on proving that only the Buddha practiced jhana.

with metta

[Senryu]

@mikenz66

There are a few, including a converstation between Jains and, I believe, Sariputta, but I don’t have time to look for them right now.

Yes, sorry I withdrew my statement about contemporaries not practicing jhāna. I am saying that I am unaware of any direct evidence of pre-BUddhists practicing jhāna.

@mikenz66

If the other contemplatives were not adept at concentration practices, why did so many of them become arahants so quickly after hearing a little wisdom? Wheras non-contemplatives became stream enterers, and then had to work on concentration.

I don’t know. I see the following possibilities:

• they were practicing jhāna already (if so, this still concerns contemporaries, not pre-Buddhists)
• they were practicing concentration not involving the jhānas
• there is some other reason to explain this other than concentration practice.

[Senryu]

@Mat

I didn’t say the Buddha practiced only jhana; I asked why you seem intent on proving that only the Buddha practiced jhana.

Oh sorry Mat, I must be dyslexic! I mis-read “only the Buddha practiced jhana?” as “the Buddha only practiced jhana?”

Ok, so now I understand your question, I will try to answer it.

@Mat

why you seem intent on proving that only the Buddha practiced jhana.

I am not intent on proving that. I am interested in the truth, as far as we can find it. I have seen so many people, including famous scholar-monks, insisting that pre-Buddhists practiced jhāna. And yet, I have seen no direct evidence of this, despite having searched and researched this specific point a lot.

I would be very happy for it to be proven that the sources directly tell us that pre-Buddhists practiced jhāna. But I will not accept it on blind faith. If anyone believes it is clear that pre-Buddhists did practice jhāna, then if their belief is correct, they should potentially be able to prove it. I really welcome that proof! Does anyone have any?

I have presented Anālayo’s arguments, and refuted them. Perhaps someone has some argument which cannot be refuted? I would be so very interested in that.

[Mat]

@Senryu

“only the Buddha practiced jhana?” as “the Buddha only practiced jhana?”

It parallels ‘only the Buddha practiced renunciation and meditation’ and ‘the Buddha only practiced renunciation and meditation’ ie the causes of jhana, to arise.

[Senryu]

Sorry Mat I am not following you. I don’t know what you are referring to.

[Senryu]

@crizna

I recommend the reading of the paper by Lambert Schmithausen, Emeritus Professor of Indian and Busddhist Studies, University of Hamburg, and doyen in the field of text-critical studies. The paper is considered basic reading on this topic, I uploaded it on Scribd a couple of years ago You can find it here >Liberating Insight and Enlightenment in Early Buddhism<.

Thanks, I will take a look. That site requires membership, but seems it is available right here on this site! https://scdd.sfo2.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/original/2X/4/47d112c29ba8c0e8d1d120c0abe51e6a7f3551bb.pdf