SuttaCentral

Vietnamese translation misplaced


#1

Dear admins,

This is just to inform you about some misplaced Vietnamese translations.

SN 47.10: Bhikkhunupassaya Sutta
The current Vietnamese translation for that discourse is the one named
“chương 47: tương ưng niệm xứ
i: phẩm ambapāli
10.”
The actually corresponding Vietnamese translation for SN 47.10 is in SN 47.12, named
“chương 47: tương ưng niệm xứ
i: phẩm ambapāli
12. Trú Xứ Tỷ-Kheo Ni”

SN 51.22: Ayoguḷa Sutta
The current Vietnamese translation is the one named
“chương 51: tương ưng như ý túc
iii: phẩm thứ ba
22. Ðạo”
while the actually corresponding Vietnamese translation is in SN 51.23, named
“chương 51: tương ưng như ý túc
iii: phẩm thứ ba
23. Hòn Sắt”

Regards :slight_smile:


#2

I’ll just do a call out to @sujato


#4

Dear admins,

Firstly, I have found some more misplaced Vietnamese translation on SC.

For SN 35,
discourses from SN 35.1 to SN 35.81 are fine, they matched between the English and Vietnamese translations.

For SN 35.82 - Lokapañhā Sutta, the current Vietnamese translation named “Thế giới” in SN 35.82 is actually for SN 35.83 - Phaggunapañhā Sutta. I hadn’t found the actual Vietnamese translation for SN 35.82 - Lokapañhā Sutta.

discourses from SN 35.83 to SN 35.91 corresponds with Vietnamese translation of the previous discourse (eg: SN 35.84 -Palokadhamma Sutta corresponds with Vietnamese translation named “Biến hoại” in SN 35.83).

Vietnamese translation named “cả hai” in SN 35.91 - Dutiyaejā Sutta, is a combination of both SN 35.92 - Paṭhamadvaya Sutta, and SN 35.93 - Dutiyadvaya Sutta.

The actual Vietnamese translation of discourses from SN 35.94 to the end of SN 35 - salayatana samyutta, is found in the discourse that is two discourses far before that. For example: the Vietnamese translation of SN 35.94 - Adantaagutta Sutta, is named “Thâu nhiếp” in SN 35.92 - Paṭhamadvaya Sutta.

Secondly, I noticed the difference in English translation between venerable Sujato and venerable Thanissaro for MN 125, as follow:

Venerable Thanissaro’s translation in his book “Right mindfulness” (section “Treaties” at eBooks | dhammatalks.org )

“Then the Tathāgata trains him further: ‘Come, monk, remain focused
on the body in & of itself, but do not think any thoughts connected
with the body. Remain focused on feelings in & of themselves, but do
not think any thoughts connected with feelings. Remain focused on the
mind in & of itself, but do not think any thoughts connected with mind.
Remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves, but do not
think any thoughts connected with mental qualities.’ With the stilling
of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters the second jhāna.” (p. 32)

The corresponding paragraph in Venerabale Sujato’s translation of MN 125 on SC (SuttaCentral ):

"Then the Realized One guides them further: ‘Come, mendicant, meditate observing an aspect of the body, but don’t think thoughts connected with sensual pleasures. Meditate observing an aspect of feelings … mind … principles, but don’t think thoughts connected with sensual pleasures.’

As the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, they enter and remain in the second absorption"

So in venerable Sujato’s translation, “sensual pleasures” replaced the four establishings of mindfulness (body, feeling, mind, phenomena/mental qualities).

Could you please explain this difference?

Thank you,
Regards.


#5

Again, one Ven. @sujato may like to be tagged in on.


#6

Hi, thanks so much for taking the time to note these for us.

We’ve been aware that there are problems with the Vietnamese texts for some time. Our sticking point has been to find someone to help with reliably correcting them. So now I’m wondering, would you be able to do that? If one of our team was to make the appropriate adjustments, could you work with them to ensure that we are in fact correcting them properly? :pray:


#7

Dear Venerable Sujato,

I can help you to correct them if the technical process isn’t complicated. I have been struggling with IT.

I can help your team to check consistency.

Venerable Thich Minh Chau’s Vietnamese translation of the nikayas can be difficult for Vietnamese to understand the old language full of words borrowed from Chinese and localized. Many words are strange to modern language and a significant part of grammar is also old style. So altogether they are confusing and misleading. I hear this complaint a lot. There are also differences in content of some discourses in comparison between the Vietnamese and English translation. For example, AN 8.31 - Paṭhamadāna Sutta, the first of eight reasons to give is “having insulted the recipient, one gives a gift” according to Venerable Bodhi’s translation. But the Vietnamese translation states that “Vì có người đến, nên bố thí” which means “one gives a gift because a person (guest) has come to visit”.

Partly due to the above reasons, recently I have changed to English translation completely. Editing the current Vietnamese translation to correct content in comparison with English translations and adapt modern language is too time-consuming. So I am thinking about translating some discourses from English to Vietnamese.

Regards


#8

Dear Avuso,

  1. Please try to translate first and you will know how difficult it is.

  2. No translation is perfect. (included one from Ven. Bodhi)

  3. This forum IMHO is not a right place to make this kind of comment about non-English translation.


#9

Dear friend, I think understand you’re coming from a very decent place, and it is very admirable. However, within the given context I think the comments offered are quite reasonable and made in good faith. I’d add that, indeed, this is a good place to mention legitimate difficulties with given translations, not least because as an interest in translation has been expressed, there may further be interest in trying out the new translation software we are developing when it’s ready.


#10

I don’t agree. If one see some differents between two translations and immediately one make conclusion that one of them is not correct, that in my view is not proper way. Before making this kind of conclusion one has many things to do. You know it.

Second, how can we discuss Vietnamese translation using English?

For avuso purifiedpalisutta, we have Pali Chuyên Đề in Facebook to share about Vietnamese translation from Ven. Minh Chau. Please consider this option instead.


#11

In this context we’re not really trying to have a discussion about Vietnamese translations, we’re trying to see about firstly, making corrections to texts on the site, and potentially add new translations. Respectfully, if anything, it is your comments that are not suited for this thread.


#12

Do you understand above Vietnamese phrase? @Aminah


#13

Again, it’s not the point of the discussion. Please, do not post further on this matter.