In all the pali suttas, sure, but in the context of samadhi, when is it clearly not referring to the anatomical body? in another thread ven. sujato mentioned for a formless attainment. well, in formless attainments, kaya being part of rupa would exclude it from awareness, so yes it’s a samadhi attainment, but it’s not clear why that should be extended to four jhanas. any other samadhi references beside that one?
the 4 jhana similes for example (AN 5.28), how could it possibly not be referring to the anatomical body?
i’ve experienced what ajahn brahm described as a full body orgasm that’s so intense it’s almost traumatic, for 3 hours continuously. Now my perception of the anatomical body can become distorted or unusual, for example feeling like no boundaries of my body sometimes, not having a sense of location, which way is up, which way is down, but I definitely feel the vibration pleasant buzz that one associates with tactile sensations of an anatomical body. And if I “look” for my body I can usually find the anatomical body. “There’s my head, there’s my finger, here’s up, here’s the ground, etc.” I don’t have to be in a cross leg sitting posture either. I can have full body intense orgasm for hours in a standing posture, lying posture, even walking slowly.
Similarly, for all 4 jhana similes I can experience it exactly like it says, in reference to my anatomical body. At 2am in the morning, when it’s dark, i can walk around with a ball of light in front of my face I can see the ball of light and my dark surroundings with my eyes open. I can expand the ball of light to fill my anatomical body, like a white cloth covering it. I can also hear sounds and feel tactile sensations with my body while doing this.
If this works for my anatomical body, and other meditators can do it too, why would we think “kaya” means a mental-only body in first, 2nd, 3rd jhana?
i don’t doubt that this can experienced in other ways, as an only-mental experience for example, but if the straightforward ockhams razor reading for standard 3rd jhana formula (sukhanca kayena patsamvedi) and 4 jhana similes as anatomical body, why should we suspect the Buddha meant anything different?
if the jhana tent is big enough to accommodate both experiences, then that’s fair enough. But if one is claiming that the anatomical body can not be experienced even in first jhana, the onus is on them to clearly show why, because this greatly impacts how earnest disciples understand, approach, and try to practice. For example, in the MN 36 thread going on right now talking about the buddha recalling his experience as boy watching his father pick apples, and then he enters first jhana. He realizes that his bliss is blameless, no reason to fear it, unlike bliss based on 5 cords of sensual pleasure. The skill to work on for first jhana, according to a straightforward ockhams razor reading of the EBT, is to see the danger in unskillful types of pleasure, replace those types of thoughts with skillful ones, and with sufficient kāya passadhi and citta-passaddhi, one has fufilled passaddhi-bojjhanga and can be in first jhana where pleasure in anatomical body can be felt. It ain’t that hard folks, to get a glimpse of first jhana, according to EBT-OR (EBT ockham’s razor style). But if Ajahn Brahm is correct, and sounds can not be heard, body can not be felt in first jhana, good luck, that’s a huge barrier to entry. No wonder dry-vipassana schools arose, and they had to come up with weird things like “vipassana-jhana”. This is why the issue matters.
So far all the EBT evidence in support of Ajahn brahm’s jhana claim takes it as a given fact that the anatomical body can not be experienced in jhana, and then a strained interpretation of the EBT passage follows to try to support that. I have yet to see an EBT passage where a natural, simple ockhams razor style reading leads one to believe the anatomical body is not what is meant by “kaya” in the context of four jhanas.
And once again, my allegiance is only to the truth. If compelling evidence can be shown, I’ll change my mind on what jhana is in an instant.