Yeah, the translation “still feeling pleasure with the body” is problematic; unfortunately, i’m no pali expert. 
Does it imply that the meditator has not complete even the 1st tetrad of anapanasati? The translation appear strange isn’t it?
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Essentially is refers to the mind. The commentaries call it the nāmakāya (the mental body), a term also found in the suttas, e.g. DN15. But it is an idiom that means direct experience, as opposed to inference. In the third jhāna you have your first ever direct experience of sukha with no concomitant pīti.[/quote]
It’s interesting that the Buddha did not use that term or a similar one here. Are there any similar terms that you can think of off the top of your head?
[quote=“Brahmali”][quote=“Mkoll, post:133, topic:2589”]
Are there places in the suttas where kāyena does unambiguously refer to the physical body in the context of practicing the Dhamma?
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Kāyena does indeed refer to the physical body in a number of places, especially in the context of the sense of touch: you touch “with the physical body.”[/quote]
Thanks.
What strikes me about the similes is that they are vividly physical in nature. Of particular note, they clearly use the 4 great elements of earth, water, fire, and air. It seems to me like the Buddha would have used psychological similes, which he uses many times elsewhere in other contexts, if he was referring to the mental body.
~
Your explanation makes much more sense than the commentary’s, though perhaps the commentary meant something very similar to yours and I misinterpreted it.
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I guess that depends on one’s understanding of anapanasati. 
Yup, that is what i think as well!
Anyway, maybe you could try reading it backward, from 3rd tetrad down to 1st tetrad, see if there is any different.
The 3rd tetrad, i don’t take it as citta. If one take up a meditation object; that one do not take other object but continue with breath (air) after 3rd tetrad and cultivate up to mental object, dualism of mind and mind object (stable parikamma nimitta) is experienced. Here, we can say that the mind as citta, but i don’t know if the mind object is citta as well.
But the 3rd tetrad is not a rupa jhana yet, as far as i read it. It seems the 4 tetrad display a direct discernment path, directly using the light of wisdom of upacara samadhi (i have to use this term for convenient).
Kaya in the 3rd tetrad may refer to the ‘overlapping’ of perceptions that is seen in much clarity. Consciousness ‘samplings’ become more apparent, that one monitor the other.
However, as long as there is no nimitta object, even though you do not sense your nose or eye and you do not feel the pain of your back, this is what you can check. Do it subtlety, else upacara samadhi will be weaken. Direct attention to the top of your scalp, there is this area of less than 2 inches diameter; within this region, you might be able to find very fine multiple ‘pins’ like response. There is another location; bottom of your foot skin area near toe including toe, also produces response. The latter is vivid (may not be found), the former is more clear.
So in 3rd tetrad, one experience not body parts but the body as a whole, with the support of piti and sukha that generates fire element which perceive by the mind as light, the mind switch to new ‘platform’. The bold (roughly) i take as kaya.
‘The 4 great elements of earth, water, fire, and air’ is not applicable because the meditator still experiences a combination of perceptions, though with better clarity.
Food for thought!
I do have another perspective of handling 1st, 2nd & 3rd tetrad. If we look at anapanasati as a double process for 1~3, a looping type of training, that would answer many question.
The 1st round of tetrad 1 to 3, is a coarse process. At the end of the 3rd, if we take reflection of air as object and feed it back into the anapanasati formula of 1st tetrad for the fine process to take place by letting the dynamic aspect of Vicara play its role.
Then the 2nd looping kaya for 1st tetrad would be parikamma-nimitta, 2nd tetrad would be uggaha-nimitta, 3rd tetrad would be patibhāga-nimitta. So in this case, in 2nd round 3rd tetrad would be a Rupa Jhana.
A simile of an eagle flapping its wing as Vitakka and gliding as Vicara; in this case Vitakka only appears to be dynamic but it is not, in actual fact the gliding; produce the dynamism of the eagle to cruise from one spot to another.
Similarly, the dynamic part in samadhi is not from Vitakka, but Vicara provide the foundation for a meditator, sails into jhana later.
Edit
What i’m trying to say is one normally does not realised that he is looping the tetrad 1~3 especially when one attend retreat. After 3 days normally you enter into better samadhi condition easily and bypass 1st round 1&2 tetrad or going thru it faster; appear to start of from the 3rd tetrad of 1 round and goes into second round.
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In all the pali suttas, sure, but in the context of samadhi, when is it clearly not referring to the anatomical body? in another thread ven. sujato mentioned for a formless attainment. well, in formless attainments, kaya being part of rupa would exclude it from awareness, so yes it’s a samadhi attainment, but it’s not clear why that should be extended to four jhanas. any other samadhi references beside that one?
the 4 jhana similes for example (AN 5.28), how could it possibly not be referring to the anatomical body?
i’ve experienced what ajahn brahm described as a full body orgasm that’s so intense it’s almost traumatic, for 3 hours continuously. Now my perception of the anatomical body can become distorted or unusual, for example feeling like no boundaries of my body sometimes, not having a sense of location, which way is up, which way is down, but I definitely feel the vibration pleasant buzz that one associates with tactile sensations of an anatomical body. And if I “look” for my body I can usually find the anatomical body. “There’s my head, there’s my finger, here’s up, here’s the ground, etc.” I don’t have to be in a cross leg sitting posture either. I can have full body intense orgasm for hours in a standing posture, lying posture, even walking slowly.
Similarly, for all 4 jhana similes I can experience it exactly like it says, in reference to my anatomical body. At 2am in the morning, when it’s dark, i can walk around with a ball of light in front of my face I can see the ball of light and my dark surroundings with my eyes open. I can expand the ball of light to fill my anatomical body, like a white cloth covering it. I can also hear sounds and feel tactile sensations with my body while doing this.
If this works for my anatomical body, and other meditators can do it too, why would we think “kaya” means a mental-only body in first, 2nd, 3rd jhana?
i don’t doubt that this can experienced in other ways, as an only-mental experience for example, but if the straightforward ockhams razor reading for standard 3rd jhana formula (sukhanca kayena patsamvedi) and 4 jhana similes as anatomical body, why should we suspect the Buddha meant anything different?
if the jhana tent is big enough to accommodate both experiences, then that’s fair enough. But if one is claiming that the anatomical body can not be experienced even in first jhana, the onus is on them to clearly show why, because this greatly impacts how earnest disciples understand, approach, and try to practice. For example, in the MN 36 thread going on right now talking about the buddha recalling his experience as boy watching his father pick apples, and then he enters first jhana. He realizes that his bliss is blameless, no reason to fear it, unlike bliss based on 5 cords of sensual pleasure. The skill to work on for first jhana, according to a straightforward ockhams razor reading of the EBT, is to see the danger in unskillful types of pleasure, replace those types of thoughts with skillful ones, and with sufficient kāya passadhi and citta-passaddhi, one has fufilled passaddhi-bojjhanga and can be in first jhana where pleasure in anatomical body can be felt. It ain’t that hard folks, to get a glimpse of first jhana, according to EBT-OR (EBT ockham’s razor style). But if Ajahn Brahm is correct, and sounds can not be heard, body can not be felt in first jhana, good luck, that’s a huge barrier to entry. No wonder dry-vipassana schools arose, and they had to come up with weird things like “vipassana-jhana”. This is why the issue matters.
So far all the EBT evidence in support of Ajahn brahm’s jhana claim takes it as a given fact that the anatomical body can not be experienced in jhana, and then a strained interpretation of the EBT passage follows to try to support that. I have yet to see an EBT passage where a natural, simple ockhams razor style reading leads one to believe the anatomical body is not what is meant by “kaya” in the context of four jhanas.
And once again, my allegiance is only to the truth. If compelling evidence can be shown, I’ll change my mind on what jhana is in an instant.
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i want to give an example of what i mean by NON EBTOR strained reading
somewhere, Ven Anālayo wrote (MA studies footnotes I think), regarding the Buddha’s 1st jhana experience as a boy, that perhaps the Buddha, as a boy, still retained imperturbable samadhi skills from his immediate past life, and was able to go into an imperturbable first jhana where no sound could be heard, body not felt. As a boy, with no prior training, he spontaneously did this. And then as a i recall ven. then struggled to explain why the boy didn’t continue to use it and realize its value.
NOT EBT-OR.
What would be one EBTOR interpretation? The Buddha as a boy was tired, sat down, mind and body totally relaxed, and then he felt the telltale piti-sukha surge of pleasure of first jhana pervade his anatomical body. Clearly not an ordinary human experience, but not unattainable by any stretch of the imagination. I bet if you surveyed most meditators who can do a first jhana EBTOR, their first experience of first jhana happened when they were doing a sitting meditation and were getting sleepy, so that the mind involuntarily stopped thinking and body relaxed completely. Or maybe they went to lie down and take a rest, and then, WHAM, the piti sukha surge of bliss woke them up.
the story of the buddha 's first jhana as a boy brings up some other issues that make the NON-EBTOR first jhana interpretation dubious. The buddha’s recollection of the story happens after he’d already done the 6 years of extreme austerities, and also studied with alara kalama and the other teacher who taught him the 2 imperturble samadhis of base of nothingness and neither perception nor non perception.
So if imperturbable samadhi of not hearing sounds and feeling body sensations was such a big deal, he’d already learned that and rejected it as “the way to nibbana”.
The emphasis of first jhana is training the mind to look at things as they are, see them as suffering, abandon them, see the cause and effect of ones unskillful patterns and reprogram them, and then enjoy the mental and physical pleasure of doing that. vitakka and vicara have a vital role in first jhana and preceding that precisely because of this.
Simply training oneself in a meditation to be able to not hear sounds and feel the body is just a type of samatha Kung Fu devoid of wisdom. An EBTOR reading would focus on the former, and if one happens to have great meditation skills latent from previous lives, allow for the latter, but not make it a requirement for first three jhanas. Fourth jhana, with standard definition of "sukhassa ca pahana dukkhassa pahana " , you could make a case that leg pain, mosquito bites, sound might not be felt, or at least not perturb your samadhi at all.
One reason is the fact that the jhana is described as secluded from sensuality (from the standard jhana description). Pleasant sensations in the body is sensuality.
Or from AN 5.176:
“Lord, when a disciple of the noble ones enters & remains in seclusion & rapture, there are five possibilities that do not exist at that time: […] The pleasure & joy dependent on sensuality do not exist at that time. […]
There’s also the numerous suttas that say there are no sensuality perceptions in jhana. Or just the fact that sensual pleasures are not the middle way.
If the pleasure of the jhanas were bodily, that’s very hard to explain regarding the Buddha’s stance on sensuality.[quote=“frankk, post:140, topic:2589”]
But if Ajahn Brahm is correct, and sounds can not be heard, body can not be felt in first jhana, good luck, that’s a huge barrier to entry.
[/quote]
Of course, because you actually have to let go that way. That’s what the barrier is, a barrier of letting go, a barrier of renunciation, a barrier of giving up.
I mean, that huge barrier is just clinging to sensuality, nothing else 
Are niramisa feelings part of sensuality?
If the pleasure of the jhanas were bodily, that’s very hard to explain regarding the Buddha’s stance on sensuality.
What about the simile of the bath powder, does it not refer explicitly to the first jhana and to the physical body at the same time?
Can you quote some of these suttas?
Also, if you’re interested in some edifying discussion on what “sensuality” means, check out this thread on DW.
What are niramisa feelings?[quote=“silence, post:143, topic:2589”]
What about the simile of the bath powder, does it not refer explicitly to the first jhana and to the physical body at the same time?
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That depends on if you think of body as the physical body or a body as in a collection of phenomena.
Like in the anapanasati sutta where you have the breath being a “body in the body”. The way I understand that is that the breath is a collection of phenomena in the body.[quote=“Mkoll, post:144, topic:2589”]
Can you quote some of these suttas?
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A search on “perception of sensuality” reveals two suttas. Sorry for calling that “numerous”; implying that my argument is stronger than it really is.
Edit: AN 9.31 and DN9 come up from the search.
From the former:
“Monks, there are these nine step-by-step stoppings. Which nine?
“When one has attained the first jhāna, the perception of sensuality has been stopped. […]
What about the simile of the bath powder, does it not refer explicitly to the first jhana and to the physical body at the same time?
[quote=“Erik_ODonnell, post:145, topic:2589”]That depends on if you think of body as the physical body or a body as in a collection of phenomena.
[/quote]
In that simile there is no question whether or not it means the physical body or a collection of (only mental?) phenomena. The simile makes it crystal clear which one it is.
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I agree, I think the first jhana simile fits much better for when the five sense are gone, because without the five senses “you are” just a ball of mental experiences, like that bath ball.
The first jhana simile for reference:
Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman’s apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body [of mental phenomena]* unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal
Personally, I think that the similie can be just as consistent with the part in brackets. It just depends on how you read body.
*added by me
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Thanks for looking those up.
I think that the interpretation of the first jhana’s “seclusion from sensuality” (vivicceva kāmehi) depends on how one interprets sensuality in the context of jhana. From Ven. Nyanatiloka’s dictionary, we see that sensuality has 2 different meanings.
[quote=“Buddhist Dictionary”]kāma may denote: 1. subjective sensuality, ‘sense-desire’; 2. objective sensuality, the five sense-objects.
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_k.htm[/quote]
IMO, it is referring to the first meaning. Why? Because the entrance into the first jhana requires the abandoning of the 5 hindrances, the first of which is sensual desire (kamacchanda). If this first hindrance was the five cords of sense pleasure (kamaguna), then it would be referring to the second meaning.
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Ockham’s razor takes a serious toll at credibility.
Indeed. And you really need the immaterial states. It is only when you transcend something that you fully understand it.
I can give you a few references to where kāyena must refer to the mind rather than the body, if that’s what you mean.
AN9.43:
Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana… the third jhana… the fourth jhana… the dimension of the infinitude of space… the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness… the dimension of nothingness… the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He remains touching with his body (kāyena) in whatever way there is an opening there.
Similarly the immaterial attainments are everywhere said to be “touched with the body,” such as SN12.70, AN8.72 , AN9.45, AN10.9, etc. It goes without saying that you cannot experience the immaterial attainments with the physical body.
AN4.189:
And what, bhikkhus, are the things to be realized by the body (kāyena)? The eight emancipations, bhikkhus, are to be realized by the body (kāyena).
These are the vimokkhas, which include the immaterial attainments.
AN4.113:
Resolute, he realizes the supreme truth with the body (kāyena) …
Supreme truth here is paramasaccaṃ and must refer to the stages of awakening. That this should refer to the physical body makes no sense.
Also, if you think about it, it does not make good sense that the happiness of third jhāna should be experienced with the physical body. First, we need to be clear about the distinction between bodily and mental happiness/pleasure. Bodily happiness is epitomised by sex. Mental happiness really refers to spiritual happiness - think of the joy you experience from living well. This may be partially experienced in the body, but is mostly a mental experience. It is this sort of happiness you experience in meditation. The deeper you go the more mental it becomes and correspondingly less physical. In this context it makes very little sense to think that the third jhāna is experienced through the body, as if there were no mental component to this happiness worth mentioning. I just don’t think it makes any sense to see the third jhāna in this way.
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I suspect that the expression which we are translating here as “touch with the body” had back then an idiomatic meaning closer to witness, testify, experience.
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Good on you, as they say here in Oz. I am really happy to hear that your meditation is going so well. It’s great that we have such experienced meditators on this forum.
Now imagine taking this to the next level …
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Hi Bhante,
Thanks for all those references. They make it clear that kāyena is not referring to the physical body in those cases.
Whatever the case may be, what is clear is that the truth of these states can only be known personally via diligent practice.
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