SuttaCentral
AN 5.176:
“Lord, when a disciple of the noble ones enters & remains in seclusion & rapture, there are five possibilities that do not exist at that time: The pain & distress dependent on sensuality do not exist at that time. […]
This seems to indicate that a noise thorn can not be present during jhanas.
At the same time, the first jhana still has domanassa, which is some kind of mental pain.
From my reading of the suttas, it seems like sensory perceptions from the 5 senses (e.g. sound) only cease upon the first formless attainment. For example, in MN 8:
“It is possible here that with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, some bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the fourth jhāna, which has neither-pain-nor-pleasure and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity. He might think thus: ‘I am abiding in effacement.’ But it is not these attainments that are called ‘effacement’ in the Noble One’s Discipline: these are called ‘pleasant abidings here and now’ in the Noble One’s Discipline.
“It is possible here that with the complete surmounting of perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of sensory impact, with non-attention to perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘space is infinite,’ some bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the base of infinite space. He might think thus: ‘I am abiding in effacement.’ But it is not these attainments that are called ‘effacement’ in the Noble One’s Discipline: these are called ‘peaceful abidings’ in the Noble One’s Discipline.
Based just on reading this description of the jhanas and 1st formless attainment, it seems clear that perceptions of form and perceptions of sensory impact still remain in the 4 jhanas, only leaving completely in the 1st formless attainment. The bolded part being put there in the descriptions strongly implies that such perceptions of form and sense-impact have not disappeared in the earlier jhanas.
However, the Vism. takes a different point of view. I don’t find the reasons it gives for the claimed lack of sense-perceptions in the first jhana very convincing. Below is a rough copy-paste of part of page 324-325 from the online Vism. found here. (For some reason, the numbering is being auto-formatted to start at 1 here when it should start at 16.)
- With the disappearance of perceptions of resistance: perceptions of resistance
are perceptions arisen through the impact of the physical base consisting of the
eye, etc., and the respective objects consisting of visible objects etc.; and this is a
term for perception of visible objects (rúpa) and so on, according as it is said:
“Here, what are perceptions of resistance? Perceptions of visible objects,
perceptions of sounds, perceptions of odours, perceptions of flavours, perceptions
of tangible objects—these are called ‘perceptions of resistance’” (Vibh 261);
with the complete disappearance, the abandoning, the non-arising, of these ten
kinds of perceptions of resistance, that is to say, of the five profitable-resultant
and five unprofitable-resultant;6
causing their non-occurrence, is what is meant.
- Of course, these are not to be found in one who has entered upon the first
jhána, etc., either; for consciousness at that time does not occur by way of the five
doors. Still [330] the mention of them here should be understood as a
recommendation of this jhána for the purpose of arousing interest in it, just as in
the case of the fourth jhána there is mention of the pleasure and pain already
abandoned elsewhere, and in the case of the third path there is mention of the
[false] view of personality, etc., already abandoned earlier.
- Or alternatively, though these are also not to be found in one who has
attained the fine-material sphere, still their not being there is not due to their
having been abandoned; for development of the fine-material sphere does not
lead to fading of greed for materiality, and the occurrence of those [fine-material
jhánas] is actually dependent on materiality. But this development [of the
immaterial] does lead to the fading of greed for materiality. Therefore it is allowable
to say that they are actually abandoned here; and not only to say it, but to
maintain it absolutely.
- In fact it is because they have not been abandoned already before this that
it was said by the Blessed One that sound is a thorn to one who has the first
jhána (A V 135). And it is precisely because they are abandoned here that the
imperturbability (see Vibh 135) of the immaterial attainments and their state of
peaceful liberation are mentioned (M I 33), and that Á¿ára Káláma neither saw
the five hundred carts that passed close by him nor heard the sound of them
while he was in an immaterial attainment (D II 130).
Sorry if this has already been posted. 
Only in one Nikaya listing but not so in the sutras (now lost) cited in the Northern material.
Hi @Mkoll
What if i read it this way:
Infinite space abiding:
“with the complete surmounting of perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of sensory impact, with non-attention to perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘space is infinite,’ some bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the base of infinite space”
Rupa Jhana 1~4 abiding:
“with the complete surmounting of perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of sensory impact, aware that 'mind object,’ some bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the rupa jhana”
Upacara samadhi abiding:
“with the complete surmounting of perceptions of bodily form, some bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the upacara samadhi”
Here’s a thought that I’ve often had about the jhanas:
If you assume the jhanas are without the five senses, then if you aim for that and it turns out to be wrong, there’s no danger because letting go of stuff is what you have to do anyway.
By erring on the side of letting go of things, there’s no danger.
However, if you assume that you don’t have to let go of the five senses to have right samadhi, but this happens to be wrong, then you won’t be able to attain right samadhi, because you’re stopped by a lack of letting go (aka clinging). This is a danger.
I mean, it’s nice to retain a little bit of the senses, because then you can practice the path without having to completely give up the world. But what if the point is precisely to give up the world?
Seems safer to assume you have to let go big time. If you overshoot, so what? 
Rupa Jhana 1~4 abiding:
“with the complete surmounting of perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of sensory impact, aware that 'mind object,’ some bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the rupa jhana”
You’re of course free to read it however you’d like, but those words simply aren’t in the rupajhana formulas themselves. There is also the phrase “still feeling pleasure with the body” in the 3rd jhana formula, implying that bodily feeling is still arising in that state (and some time before it). That requires contact, consciousness, and sense base and object at the body-door.
edit: I’m basing this on the English translation, so if someone who knows Pali well has a good rebuttal I’m all ears
Thorn to the entry.
The point, as I see it, is that the mind takes the sense objects as its own objects, as in a dream for instance. Here is the relevant passage from MN43:
Friend, these five faculties — each with a separate range, a separate domain, not experiencing one another’s range & domain: the eye-faculty, the ear-faculty, the nose-faculty, the tongue-faculty, & the body-faculty — have the intellect as their [common] arbitrator. The intellect is what experiences [all] their ranges & domains.
In other words, there is an echo of the five senses still remaining in the jhānas, but the senses themselves are no longer available. The phrase “the perception of sensory impact” just means that all residual traces of the senses have not yet come to an end.
There are a number of passages where kāyena cannot mean “with the physical body,” but rather refers to direct personal experience. It is important to get away from the idea that kāya always refers to the physical body in Pali. Often it just refers to an accumulation.
Hi Bhante,
[quote=“Brahmali, post:132, topic:2589, full:true”][quote=“Mkoll, post:127, topic:2589”]
Based just on reading this description of the jhanas and 1st formless attainment, it seems clear that perceptions of form and perceptions of sensory impact still remain in the 4 jhanas, only leaving completely in the 1st formless attainment.
[/quote]
The point, as I see it, is that the mind takes the sense objects as its own objects, as in a dream for instance. Here is the relevant passage from MN43:
Friend, these five faculties — each with a separate range, a separate domain, not experiencing one another’s range & domain: the eye-faculty, the ear-faculty, the nose-faculty, the tongue-faculty, & the body-faculty — have the intellect as their [common] arbitrator. The intellect is what experiences [all] their ranges & domains.
In other words, there is an echo of the five senses still remaining in the jhānas, but the senses themselves are no longer available. The phase “the perception of sensory impact” just means that all residual traces of the senses have not yet come to an end.[/quote]
So you read the “perception of sensory impact” as being memories of past sensory impact that are still accessible in the jhanas, similar to how the mind experiences the senses in a dream, and one of those perceptions is what is taken up as the object of the mind in the form jhanas? Is that correct?
[quote=“Brahmali, post:132, topic:2589, full:true”][quote=“Mkoll, post:131, topic:2589”]
There is also the phrase “still feeling pleasure with the body” in the 3rd jhana formula, implying that bodily feeling is still arising in that state (and some time before it).
[/quote]
There are a number of passages where kāyena cannot mean “with the physical body,” but rather refers to direct personal experience. It is important to get away from the idea that kāya always refers to the physical body in Pali. Often it just refers to an accumulation.
[/quote]
Thank you for that information. A few questions from that:
So do you think that the 3rd jhana kāyena in fact refer to “accumulation” here? If so, what exactly is kāyena referring to? The citta?
Are there places in the suttas where kāyena does unambiguously refer to the physical body in the context of practicing the Dhamma?
Do you see the “permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body” (Ven. Thanissaro translation) in the AN 5.28 jhana similes as also referring to an accumulation and not the physical body itself? It looks like those similes are using the word kāyaṃ for body/accumulation.
Thanks.
It’s like picturing something in your mind. In a sense it is based on memory, but the picturing happens in the present moment. Of course in the jhānas what is left is a very rudimentary form of this, in fact the most rudimentary form possible. You have a stable perception of bliss, but there is an aspect to that which still is not entirely free of the echo of the senses.
Essentially is refers to the mind. The commentaries call it the nāmakāya (the mental body), a term also found in the suttas, e.g. DN15. But it is an idiom that means direct experience, as opposed to inference. In the third jhāna you have your first ever direct experience of sukha with no concomitant pīti.
Kāyena does indeed refer to the physical body in a number of places, especially in the context of the sense of touch: you touch “with the physical body.”
Yes, the whole mental body. Your entire experience is one of bliss.
Yeah, the translation “still feeling pleasure with the body” is problematic; unfortunately, i’m no pali expert. 
Does it imply that the meditator has not complete even the 1st tetrad of anapanasati? The translation appear strange isn’t it?
Essentially is refers to the mind. The commentaries call it the nāmakāya (the mental body), a term also found in the suttas, e.g. DN15. But it is an idiom that means direct experience, as opposed to inference. In the third jhāna you have your first ever direct experience of sukha with no concomitant pīti.[/quote]
It’s interesting that the Buddha did not use that term or a similar one here. Are there any similar terms that you can think of off the top of your head?
[quote=“Brahmali”][quote=“Mkoll, post:133, topic:2589”]
Are there places in the suttas where kāyena does unambiguously refer to the physical body in the context of practicing the Dhamma?
[/quote]
Kāyena does indeed refer to the physical body in a number of places, especially in the context of the sense of touch: you touch “with the physical body.”[/quote]
Thanks.
What strikes me about the similes is that they are vividly physical in nature. Of particular note, they clearly use the 4 great elements of earth, water, fire, and air. It seems to me like the Buddha would have used psychological similes, which he uses many times elsewhere in other contexts, if he was referring to the mental body.
~
Your explanation makes much more sense than the commentary’s, though perhaps the commentary meant something very similar to yours and I misinterpreted it.
I guess that depends on one’s understanding of anapanasati. 
Yup, that is what i think as well!
Anyway, maybe you could try reading it backward, from 3rd tetrad down to 1st tetrad, see if there is any different.
The 3rd tetrad, i don’t take it as citta. If one take up a meditation object; that one do not take other object but continue with breath (air) after 3rd tetrad and cultivate up to mental object, dualism of mind and mind object (stable parikamma nimitta) is experienced. Here, we can say that the mind as citta, but i don’t know if the mind object is citta as well.
But the 3rd tetrad is not a rupa jhana yet, as far as i read it. It seems the 4 tetrad display a direct discernment path, directly using the light of wisdom of upacara samadhi (i have to use this term for convenient).
Kaya in the 3rd tetrad may refer to the ‘overlapping’ of perceptions that is seen in much clarity. Consciousness ‘samplings’ become more apparent, that one monitor the other.
However, as long as there is no nimitta object, even though you do not sense your nose or eye and you do not feel the pain of your back, this is what you can check. Do it subtlety, else upacara samadhi will be weaken. Direct attention to the top of your scalp, there is this area of less than 2 inches diameter; within this region, you might be able to find very fine multiple ‘pins’ like response. There is another location; bottom of your foot skin area near toe including toe, also produces response. The latter is vivid (may not be found), the former is more clear.
So in 3rd tetrad, one experience not body parts but the body as a whole, with the support of piti and sukha that generates fire element which perceive by the mind as light, the mind switch to new ‘platform’. The bold (roughly) i take as kaya.
‘The 4 great elements of earth, water, fire, and air’ is not applicable because the meditator still experiences a combination of perceptions, though with better clarity.
Food for thought!
I do have another perspective of handling 1st, 2nd & 3rd tetrad. If we look at anapanasati as a double process for 1~3, a looping type of training, that would answer many question.
The 1st round of tetrad 1 to 3, is a coarse process. At the end of the 3rd, if we take reflection of air as object and feed it back into the anapanasati formula of 1st tetrad for the fine process to take place by letting the dynamic aspect of Vicara play its role.
Then the 2nd looping kaya for 1st tetrad would be parikamma-nimitta, 2nd tetrad would be uggaha-nimitta, 3rd tetrad would be patibhāga-nimitta. So in this case, in 2nd round 3rd tetrad would be a Rupa Jhana.
A simile of an eagle flapping its wing as Vitakka and gliding as Vicara; in this case Vitakka only appears to be dynamic but it is not, in actual fact the gliding; produce the dynamism of the eagle to cruise from one spot to another.
Similarly, the dynamic part in samadhi is not from Vitakka, but Vicara provide the foundation for a meditator, sails into jhana later.
Edit
What i’m trying to say is one normally does not realised that he is looping the tetrad 1~3 especially when one attend retreat. After 3 days normally you enter into better samadhi condition easily and bypass 1st round 1&2 tetrad or going thru it faster; appear to start of from the 3rd tetrad of 1 round and goes into second round.
In all the pali suttas, sure, but in the context of samadhi, when is it clearly not referring to the anatomical body? in another thread ven. sujato mentioned for a formless attainment. well, in formless attainments, kaya being part of rupa would exclude it from awareness, so yes it’s a samadhi attainment, but it’s not clear why that should be extended to four jhanas. any other samadhi references beside that one?
the 4 jhana similes for example (AN 5.28), how could it possibly not be referring to the anatomical body?
i’ve experienced what ajahn brahm described as a full body orgasm that’s so intense it’s almost traumatic, for 3 hours continuously. Now my perception of the anatomical body can become distorted or unusual, for example feeling like no boundaries of my body sometimes, not having a sense of location, which way is up, which way is down, but I definitely feel the vibration pleasant buzz that one associates with tactile sensations of an anatomical body. And if I “look” for my body I can usually find the anatomical body. “There’s my head, there’s my finger, here’s up, here’s the ground, etc.” I don’t have to be in a cross leg sitting posture either. I can have full body intense orgasm for hours in a standing posture, lying posture, even walking slowly.
Similarly, for all 4 jhana similes I can experience it exactly like it says, in reference to my anatomical body. At 2am in the morning, when it’s dark, i can walk around with a ball of light in front of my face I can see the ball of light and my dark surroundings with my eyes open. I can expand the ball of light to fill my anatomical body, like a white cloth covering it. I can also hear sounds and feel tactile sensations with my body while doing this.
If this works for my anatomical body, and other meditators can do it too, why would we think “kaya” means a mental-only body in first, 2nd, 3rd jhana?
i don’t doubt that this can experienced in other ways, as an only-mental experience for example, but if the straightforward ockhams razor reading for standard 3rd jhana formula (sukhanca kayena patsamvedi) and 4 jhana similes as anatomical body, why should we suspect the Buddha meant anything different?
if the jhana tent is big enough to accommodate both experiences, then that’s fair enough. But if one is claiming that the anatomical body can not be experienced even in first jhana, the onus is on them to clearly show why, because this greatly impacts how earnest disciples understand, approach, and try to practice. For example, in the MN 36 thread going on right now talking about the buddha recalling his experience as boy watching his father pick apples, and then he enters first jhana. He realizes that his bliss is blameless, no reason to fear it, unlike bliss based on 5 cords of sensual pleasure. The skill to work on for first jhana, according to a straightforward ockhams razor reading of the EBT, is to see the danger in unskillful types of pleasure, replace those types of thoughts with skillful ones, and with sufficient kāya passadhi and citta-passaddhi, one has fufilled passaddhi-bojjhanga and can be in first jhana where pleasure in anatomical body can be felt. It ain’t that hard folks, to get a glimpse of first jhana, according to EBT-OR (EBT ockham’s razor style). But if Ajahn Brahm is correct, and sounds can not be heard, body can not be felt in first jhana, good luck, that’s a huge barrier to entry. No wonder dry-vipassana schools arose, and they had to come up with weird things like “vipassana-jhana”. This is why the issue matters.
So far all the EBT evidence in support of Ajahn brahm’s jhana claim takes it as a given fact that the anatomical body can not be experienced in jhana, and then a strained interpretation of the EBT passage follows to try to support that. I have yet to see an EBT passage where a natural, simple ockhams razor style reading leads one to believe the anatomical body is not what is meant by “kaya” in the context of four jhanas.
And once again, my allegiance is only to the truth. If compelling evidence can be shown, I’ll change my mind on what jhana is in an instant.
i want to give an example of what i mean by NON EBTOR strained reading
somewhere, Ven Anālayo wrote (MA studies footnotes I think), regarding the Buddha’s 1st jhana experience as a boy, that perhaps the Buddha, as a boy, still retained imperturbable samadhi skills from his immediate past life, and was able to go into an imperturbable first jhana where no sound could be heard, body not felt. As a boy, with no prior training, he spontaneously did this. And then as a i recall ven. then struggled to explain why the boy didn’t continue to use it and realize its value.
NOT EBT-OR.
What would be one EBTOR interpretation? The Buddha as a boy was tired, sat down, mind and body totally relaxed, and then he felt the telltale piti-sukha surge of pleasure of first jhana pervade his anatomical body. Clearly not an ordinary human experience, but not unattainable by any stretch of the imagination. I bet if you surveyed most meditators who can do a first jhana EBTOR, their first experience of first jhana happened when they were doing a sitting meditation and were getting sleepy, so that the mind involuntarily stopped thinking and body relaxed completely. Or maybe they went to lie down and take a rest, and then, WHAM, the piti sukha surge of bliss woke them up.
the story of the buddha 's first jhana as a boy brings up some other issues that make the NON-EBTOR first jhana interpretation dubious. The buddha’s recollection of the story happens after he’d already done the 6 years of extreme austerities, and also studied with alara kalama and the other teacher who taught him the 2 imperturble samadhis of base of nothingness and neither perception nor non perception.
So if imperturbable samadhi of not hearing sounds and feeling body sensations was such a big deal, he’d already learned that and rejected it as “the way to nibbana”.
The emphasis of first jhana is training the mind to look at things as they are, see them as suffering, abandon them, see the cause and effect of ones unskillful patterns and reprogram them, and then enjoy the mental and physical pleasure of doing that. vitakka and vicara have a vital role in first jhana and preceding that precisely because of this.
Simply training oneself in a meditation to be able to not hear sounds and feel the body is just a type of samatha Kung Fu devoid of wisdom. An EBTOR reading would focus on the former, and if one happens to have great meditation skills latent from previous lives, allow for the latter, but not make it a requirement for first three jhanas. Fourth jhana, with standard definition of "sukhassa ca pahana dukkhassa pahana " , you could make a case that leg pain, mosquito bites, sound might not be felt, or at least not perturb your samadhi at all.
One reason is the fact that the jhana is described as secluded from sensuality (from the standard jhana description). Pleasant sensations in the body is sensuality.
Or from AN 5.176:
“Lord, when a disciple of the noble ones enters & remains in seclusion & rapture, there are five possibilities that do not exist at that time: […] The pleasure & joy dependent on sensuality do not exist at that time. […]
There’s also the numerous suttas that say there are no sensuality perceptions in jhana. Or just the fact that sensual pleasures are not the middle way.
If the pleasure of the jhanas were bodily, that’s very hard to explain regarding the Buddha’s stance on sensuality.[quote=“frankk, post:140, topic:2589”]
But if Ajahn Brahm is correct, and sounds can not be heard, body can not be felt in first jhana, good luck, that’s a huge barrier to entry.
[/quote]
Of course, because you actually have to let go that way. That’s what the barrier is, a barrier of letting go, a barrier of renunciation, a barrier of giving up.
I mean, that huge barrier is just clinging to sensuality, nothing else 
Are niramisa feelings part of sensuality?
If the pleasure of the jhanas were bodily, that’s very hard to explain regarding the Buddha’s stance on sensuality.
What about the simile of the bath powder, does it not refer explicitly to the first jhana and to the physical body at the same time?
Can you quote some of these suttas?
Also, if you’re interested in some edifying discussion on what “sensuality” means, check out this thread on DW.