Yes,I think we have to agree with Brenna . What it matters is not mahaboowa’s attainment but , the achievements of our own. and of course advice from an elderly priest like ven. Mahaboowa is indeed useful. accepting them or rejecting them is up to ourselves:slight_smile:. That’s why I say that we shouldn’t be restricted to one particular mode of practice. An unbiased self exploration of dharma is of great fruit.
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the topic was prompted by Frankk’s reference to Ven Maha Boowa as an arahant, as transpires from its first message, and it’s purpose was to find out the basis for such references and their validity, which i think is as important for upholding the right speech as anything else
in the course of the discussion many interesting relevant opinions have been voiced and sources cited, which all are beneficial for thorough understanding of the matter and practice in general, so in my view the topic has so far been sufficiently Dhammic
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My answer to this question is I think this topic in accordance with the Dhamma because the Dhamma tells us (lay people) in many places to examine the qualities of a monk before having faith (saddha) in that monk. In other words, the Dhamma does not encourage or promote blind faith in or reverence towards a person just because that persons wears a saffron robe. 
Inspiring, indeed, is that place where Arahants dwell, be it a village, a forest, a vale or a hill. Dhp 98
Here, Bhāradvāja, a bhikkhu may be living in dependence on some village or town. Then a householder or a householder’s son goes to him & investigates him in regard to three kinds of states: in regard to states based on greed, in regard to states based on hate & in regard to states based on delusion… MN 98
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I’m largely fully agree with the concept of Boowa on Citta.
Nothing samsaric can dilute it. It is only soluble in Nibbana.
And it is true that its nature is pure, but his moment to moment work is to serve the incoming information from the Samsara and not just deal with, but also accumulate it, record it, remade.
The shovel with which the garbage is hauled itself is completely clean, however, it appears dirty for the job you have. But that garbage can be cleaned. Completely.
On the other hand, if we consider that the intrinsic nature of consciousness diverges not the least of a computer program, seeing it operate from moment to moment, it is insubstantial in impermanent and conditioned. Each operation is conditioned by all previous. It is not very different from the behavior of a wave in the sea. Drop by drop, it is a vertical movement, which ends. But its consequences (his kamma) is the horizontal movement, and that does not end.
And no better vertical than the horizontal.
Both are energy of the same nature.
Citta, seen as vertical movement is completely Samsaric.
Citta, seen as horizontal movement, it is not.
Where you can end a wave?
Only in that place where nothing can move, because it is full, where it is not possible to make a depression because there is no room …
because there is ignorance.
That is, Nibbana.
Sorry, but i’m wondering that it is possible that an Arahant can have such a behaviour like
in this video (from 1:30 untill 3:33):
and i’m wondering how big a part intellect plays in invariance of one’s spiritual accomplishment, would an arahant for instance still be an arahant having become mentally deranged or incapable? if one’s arahantship didn’t find expression in their conduct and way of thinking due to mental disability what would then constitute their arahantship, where would it be sitting? or would it still shine through despite all and any mental problems?
concurrently i’m leaning towards a view that spiritual attainment is unlikely for one whos mental problems prevent their intellectual grasp of the dhammic concepts or any relevant concepts for that matter
MN 47 Vimamsaka sutta:
“Then listen, bhikkhus, and attend closely to what I shall say.”
“Yes, venerable sir,” the bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:
“Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu who is an inquirer, not knowing how to gauge another’s mind, should investigate the Tathāgata with respect to two kinds of states, states cognizable through the eye and through the ear thus: ‘Are there found in the Tathāgata or not any defiled states cognizable through the eye or through the ear?’ When he investigates him, he comes to know: ‘No defiled states cognizable through the eye or through the ear are found in the Tathāgata.’
“When he comes to know this, he investigates him further thus: ‘Are there found in the Tathāgata or not any mixed states cognizable through the eye or through the ear?’ When he investigates him, he comes to know: ‘No mixed states cognizable through the eye or through the ear are found in the Tathāgata.’
“When he comes to know this, he investigates him further thus: ‘Are there found in the Tathāgata or not cleansed states cognizable through the eye or through the ear?’ When he investigates him, he comes to know: ‘Cleansed states cognizable through the eye or through the ear are found in the Tathāgata.’
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As for example sandundhanushka shows us in MN 47, that Buddha said that there are signs that can help us to identify/detect an Arahant. What are these?: No defiled states cognizable, No mixed states cognizable, and Cleansed states cognizable. Defiled from what? Mixed with what? Cleansed from what?
An Arahant experienced Nibbana and this is expressed in his conduct and way of thinking.
The sanskrit word for Nibbana is Nirvana what can be translated as: non shaking.
But what makes a mind shaking?
Now coming to two “real” questions (because i know that you can answer the questions above with ease): If there is an Arahant who behaved without any kind
of emotions and suddenly his brain is damaged by an accident (-> mental problem)
and he forget most of his experiences, is he an Arahant furthermore? Is it possible
that emotions can appear in him again?
Apart from the typical Thai repetitiveness, what do you find unvirtuous in the behaviour?
I find it mildly amusing how prevalent and desired it is in some traditions that their teacher has to be an arahant, It seems quite populous in Thai forest as one example, I remember someone on reddit offering his teacher who was a monastic to answer questions, and in discussing his teacher he said that his teachers teacher, AND that teacher’s mother, were both arahants.
from that point on I have to make the joke “jeeze, everyone and their mother is apparently awakened in the Thai Forest tradition” lol.
I have my suspicions as to arahantship only about Ajahn Chah(honestly I do kind of feel that if any of these Thai forest Ajahns were awakened, I’d put my bets on him), but in the end I find it doesn’t matter one bit if someone was an arahant or not, and it can really be a detriment to the path of people who are searching for that arahant teacher to bolster their pride and conceit " alright my teacher is an arahant! its the easy street to awakening for me now!" and " your teacher sucks! mine was awakened I’m following the right path".
Whether Ajahn Chah was awakened or not, his teachings call to my own experiences and resonate with them, and for that I am grateful that people preserved the teachings.
Ajahn mahaboowa does not resonate with me at all, but i’m also glad his teachings have been preserved, for others.
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I have personally never gained this impression. Generally, I have observed Thai people humble themselves towards those they believe are arahants (such as in the video). If believing in arahants was unwholesome, why do the Pali teachings emphasize the veneration of arahantship?
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what may be unwholesome is belief in arahantship of people who aren’t those
If we take the 10 fetters model (it may not be the only useful model to reach Arahatship but I found it quite useful to monitor one’s progress on the path) then it’s relatively easy to notice those who falsely claim being an Arahat. Investigate if any of these fetters are visible in the person. One good one is irritation (anger is already gone at stage two). Then any other behavior that shows not full immediate acceptance of what is.
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There are examples in the Pali suttas where the Buddha scolded monks & complained about noisy places (including of lay followers) sounding like a fish market of fish sellers.
Or in some suttas, the Buddha compared the bad behaviour of people to animals.
Or in some suttas, the Buddha was so disappointed in the behaviour of the monks he left them & went into retreat.
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Good points Deeele. I have a little pet project which is to extract from the Suttas and Vinaya the narratives such as the ones you listed and get an idea about how an Arahat functions in the world including a list of emotions he/she is still experiencing. For example when he scolds a monk, sometimes with pretty strong adjectives, is he showing anger or a more subtle skillful emotion?
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whether a person is angry only they themselves can tell for sure, intimately knowing their own emotional state, but anger is usually accompanied by matching body language and vocal expression and so i guess can be recognized as such pretty accurately
i too have a little list of suttas where the Buddha might appear as overcome by emotions unbecoming of an arahant
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Your document LXNDR is absolutely amazing. Many thanks for making it available to us. Mega Metta.
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Ajahn Amaro told a story of a time when Ajahn Chah was being fierce with a disciple. At the time, a junior monk was giving the venerable Ajahn a foot message when the monk to be scolded walked in asking questions of the great master, at which point a fiery scolding was given by the great master. When the monk who was giving the foot massage was later relaying the tale, he said that throughout the entire ordeal that there was a complete absence of tension in Ajahn Chah’s body, indicating that the fierce tone was merely an external display and not reflective of any inner anger or annoyance.
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Great document. Thanks for sharing.
Sorry, I know it’s an old post but I hadn’t logged on for a while and the subject interests me. I would agree that philosophical (or artistic) greatness and spiritual perfection are very different - good examples in the West are Schopenhauer and Wagner who were both very inspired by Buddhism and very articulate about it, but could never free themselves from defilements like sensuality (and in the case of Wagner from other thing as well) in spite of their an ascetic ideal.
At the same time it seems to me that the full understanding of non-self, which is a prerequisite for enlightenment, does require a correct understanding of the citta (and in particular that you don’t believe in an eternal consciousness, as in Hinduism). That’s why, for example, my understanding is that deep meditation alone is not sufficient for awakening but the insight you develop following meditation depends on an interpretation of your experiences based on ‘right view’ (which includes non-self).
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