Sorry, but i’m wondering that it is possible that an Arahant can have such a behaviour like
in this video (from 1:30 untill 3:33):
and i’m wondering how big a part intellect plays in invariance of one’s spiritual accomplishment, would an arahant for instance still be an arahant having become mentally deranged or incapable? if one’s arahantship didn’t find expression in their conduct and way of thinking due to mental disability what would then constitute their arahantship, where would it be sitting? or would it still shine through despite all and any mental problems?
concurrently i’m leaning towards a view that spiritual attainment is unlikely for one whos mental problems prevent their intellectual grasp of the dhammic concepts or any relevant concepts for that matter
MN 47 Vimamsaka sutta:
“Then listen, bhikkhus, and attend closely to what I shall say.”
“Yes, venerable sir,” the bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:
“Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu who is an inquirer, not knowing how to gauge another’s mind, should investigate the Tathāgata with respect to two kinds of states, states cognizable through the eye and through the ear thus: ‘Are there found in the Tathāgata or not any defiled states cognizable through the eye or through the ear?’ When he investigates him, he comes to know: ‘No defiled states cognizable through the eye or through the ear are found in the Tathāgata.’
“When he comes to know this, he investigates him further thus: ‘Are there found in the Tathāgata or not any mixed states cognizable through the eye or through the ear?’ When he investigates him, he comes to know: ‘No mixed states cognizable through the eye or through the ear are found in the Tathāgata.’
“When he comes to know this, he investigates him further thus: ‘Are there found in the Tathāgata or not cleansed states cognizable through the eye or through the ear?’ When he investigates him, he comes to know: ‘Cleansed states cognizable through the eye or through the ear are found in the Tathāgata.’
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As for example sandundhanushka shows us in MN 47, that Buddha said that there are signs that can help us to identify/detect an Arahant. What are these?: No defiled states cognizable, No mixed states cognizable, and Cleansed states cognizable. Defiled from what? Mixed with what? Cleansed from what?
An Arahant experienced Nibbana and this is expressed in his conduct and way of thinking.
The sanskrit word for Nibbana is Nirvana what can be translated as: non shaking.
But what makes a mind shaking?
Now coming to two “real” questions (because i know that you can answer the questions above with ease): If there is an Arahant who behaved without any kind
of emotions and suddenly his brain is damaged by an accident (-> mental problem)
and he forget most of his experiences, is he an Arahant furthermore? Is it possible
that emotions can appear in him again?
Apart from the typical Thai repetitiveness, what do you find unvirtuous in the behaviour?
I find it mildly amusing how prevalent and desired it is in some traditions that their teacher has to be an arahant, It seems quite populous in Thai forest as one example, I remember someone on reddit offering his teacher who was a monastic to answer questions, and in discussing his teacher he said that his teachers teacher, AND that teacher’s mother, were both arahants.
from that point on I have to make the joke “jeeze, everyone and their mother is apparently awakened in the Thai Forest tradition” lol.
I have my suspicions as to arahantship only about Ajahn Chah(honestly I do kind of feel that if any of these Thai forest Ajahns were awakened, I’d put my bets on him), but in the end I find it doesn’t matter one bit if someone was an arahant or not, and it can really be a detriment to the path of people who are searching for that arahant teacher to bolster their pride and conceit " alright my teacher is an arahant! its the easy street to awakening for me now!" and " your teacher sucks! mine was awakened I’m following the right path".
Whether Ajahn Chah was awakened or not, his teachings call to my own experiences and resonate with them, and for that I am grateful that people preserved the teachings.
Ajahn mahaboowa does not resonate with me at all, but i’m also glad his teachings have been preserved, for others.
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I have personally never gained this impression. Generally, I have observed Thai people humble themselves towards those they believe are arahants (such as in the video). If believing in arahants was unwholesome, why do the Pali teachings emphasize the veneration of arahantship?
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what may be unwholesome is belief in arahantship of people who aren’t those
If we take the 10 fetters model (it may not be the only useful model to reach Arahatship but I found it quite useful to monitor one’s progress on the path) then it’s relatively easy to notice those who falsely claim being an Arahat. Investigate if any of these fetters are visible in the person. One good one is irritation (anger is already gone at stage two). Then any other behavior that shows not full immediate acceptance of what is.
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There are examples in the Pali suttas where the Buddha scolded monks & complained about noisy places (including of lay followers) sounding like a fish market of fish sellers.
Or in some suttas, the Buddha compared the bad behaviour of people to animals.
Or in some suttas, the Buddha was so disappointed in the behaviour of the monks he left them & went into retreat.
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Good points Deeele. I have a little pet project which is to extract from the Suttas and Vinaya the narratives such as the ones you listed and get an idea about how an Arahat functions in the world including a list of emotions he/she is still experiencing. For example when he scolds a monk, sometimes with pretty strong adjectives, is he showing anger or a more subtle skillful emotion?
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whether a person is angry only they themselves can tell for sure, intimately knowing their own emotional state, but anger is usually accompanied by matching body language and vocal expression and so i guess can be recognized as such pretty accurately
i too have a little list of suttas where the Buddha might appear as overcome by emotions unbecoming of an arahant
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Your document LXNDR is absolutely amazing. Many thanks for making it available to us. Mega Metta.
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Ajahn Amaro told a story of a time when Ajahn Chah was being fierce with a disciple. At the time, a junior monk was giving the venerable Ajahn a foot message when the monk to be scolded walked in asking questions of the great master, at which point a fiery scolding was given by the great master. When the monk who was giving the foot massage was later relaying the tale, he said that throughout the entire ordeal that there was a complete absence of tension in Ajahn Chah’s body, indicating that the fierce tone was merely an external display and not reflective of any inner anger or annoyance.
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Great document. Thanks for sharing.
Sorry, I know it’s an old post but I hadn’t logged on for a while and the subject interests me. I would agree that philosophical (or artistic) greatness and spiritual perfection are very different - good examples in the West are Schopenhauer and Wagner who were both very inspired by Buddhism and very articulate about it, but could never free themselves from defilements like sensuality (and in the case of Wagner from other thing as well) in spite of their an ascetic ideal.
At the same time it seems to me that the full understanding of non-self, which is a prerequisite for enlightenment, does require a correct understanding of the citta (and in particular that you don’t believe in an eternal consciousness, as in Hinduism). That’s why, for example, my understanding is that deep meditation alone is not sufficient for awakening but the insight you develop following meditation depends on an interpretation of your experiences based on ‘right view’ (which includes non-self).
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I haven’t thought about this in a while, but I am still inclined to think that the realization of nibbana does not essentially depend on the possession of any philosophical views whatsoever. The conceptual views one forms on the way to achieving spiritual perfection are only provisionally needed as helps in crossing over, but don’t matter once the far shore is reached.
It wouldn’t be that surprising to me if it turned out there could be a perfected Buddhist saint whose mind was perfect peace, who dwelt in pure kindness with no craving, no aversion and no attachment, and who lived unencumbered by conceptual proliferation and theories of any kind - and who could thus not even describe what his own release consisted in.
Such a saint might not necessarily be the best teacher for more philosophically inclined minds, although they could do a lot of teaching by example.
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This is consistent with the Pali texts as I understand them. An arahant should be able to express Dhamma in personal words. Luangta was not an academic in spite of his ‘Maha’ honorific, so his expressions of Dhamma would reflect accordingly.
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The context of the time is important here. Thailand was in the depths of the millennium recession affecting the Pacific Rim Tiger economies, following the return of Hong Kong to Chinese rule. His declaration was along the lines of: ‘Let those with faith in this claim put ten tons of gold and ten million US dollars into the Central Bank.’ He intended this to revive the Thai economy, though the entire pacific rim knock-on recovered too: and Thailand has subsequently gotten a reputation for a ‘buoyant economy’.
Thus this “boasting” was for a compassionate purpose.
Context is everything. The discourses are all very much time and place dependent. They cannot be fully understood without knowledge of their context, which is where the commentaries can be of much value.