Was Ven Maha Boowa an arahant and why?

Well, these questions about how to interpret the anatta doctrine, the instructions to know and recognize anatta in phenomena, the many references to the “deathless”, the referent of “citta”, the proper conceptual understanding of the states of perfect liberation or purification, and related matters seem to be among the perennially debated topics in all Buddhist traditions. Different teachers of prominence appear to have taken quite different positions on some of the core metaphysical questions one can ask about the nature of the perfectly liberated state. Meanwhile the dedicated practitioners of these traditions have gone happily on purifying their conduct and mental experience, and eradicating defilements and the conditions of suffering, with some achieving highly realized levels of peace and purity.

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For anyone interested, see below the link to Luangta Maha Boowa’s famous book ARAHATTAMAGGA ARAHATTAPHALA - The Path to Arahantship

In this book one can find Luangta’s personal and detailed account of what he recalls as fruition of arahantship, involving inclusively the three superhuman knowledges (tevijja, see Iti99).

Notice how it is immediately followed by a very interesting explanation of why he would be so bold on social topics like unity among Thais, and the tensions between laity and bhikkhu sangha.

(… ) Then, from that neutral, impassive state of the citta, the nucleus of existence—the core of the knower—suddenly separated and fell away. Having finally been reduced to anatta, brightness and dullness and everything else were suddenly torn asunder and destroyed once and for all.

In that moment when avijja flipped over and fell from the citta, the sky appeared to be crashing down as the entire universe trembled and quaked. For, in truth, it is solely avijja that causes us to wander constantly through the universe of samsara. Thus, when avijja separated from the citta and vanished, it seemed as if the entire universe had fallen away and vanished along with it. Earth, sky—all collapsed in an instant. Do you understand?

No one sat in judgment at that decisive moment. That natural principle arose on its own and passed its own judgement. The universe then collapsed on its own. Originating from a neutral state of the citta, the happening took place all so suddenly: in an instant the entire cosmos seemed to flip over and disappear. It was so brilliant! Oh my! Really and truly magnificent! Too extraordinary to be captured in words. Such is the amazing nature of the Dhamma that I now teach. Tears flowed when I experienced it.

Look at me even now! Even now my tears are flowing at the recollection of that event. These tears are the work of the khandhas. Please understand that they do not exist in the natural state of purity that appeared at that moment. That natural state appeared suddenly, in all of its incredible magnificence. I want all of you who are so complacent to realize what the Dhamma of the Lord Buddha is really like. Oh! So truly, truly amazing! My goodness, the tears came streaming down my face. Utterly astounded, I exclaimed:

“Is this how the Lord Buddha attained Enlightenment? Is this how he attained Enlightenment? Is this what true Dhamma is like?” It was something that I had never conceived or imagined. It simply arose, unexpected, in an instant. Oh! Indescribably amazing! Look at me. I am crying even now as I remember how amazing it was. The memory is still fresh in my mind. It has remained with me ever since.

My whole body trembled at that moment. It’s difficult to explain. Everything happened at once: the sky came crashing down and the world completely vanished. Whereupon, I kept repeating: “What? Is this how the Lord Buddha attained Enlightenment?”

But actually it was unnecessary to ask because I had encountered the Truth myself. “Is this what the true Dhamma is like? Is this what the true Sangha is like?” All three had come together, merging into one supreme, remarkable Dhamma—what I call the Dhamma-element. “What? How can the Lord Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha be one and the same thing?” I had never imagined it to be possible.

“The Buddha is the Buddha. The Dhamma is the Dhamma. The Sangha is the Sangha.” This had been impressed in my heart ever since I was old enough to understand such matters. But at the moment when the Supreme Dhamma arose in all its brilliance, all three were of one and the same nature—the true nature of amazing Dhamma. Once it arose in all its brilliance, things that had lain in obscurity, things I never knew, were suddenly illuminated and revealed. I’m not fabricating a fantasy to deceive people. Even now that extraordinary Dhamma moves and amazes me. It is all-embracing, an encompassing luminosity that lights up the entire cosmos, revealing everything. Nothing remains hidden or concealed.

Then the consequences of good and evil and the existence of heaven and hell strike one with the irrefutable force of the obvious.

I wish they could strike all you skeptics with such force; all of you who have allowed the kilesas to deceive you into believing that there is no such thing as the consequences of evil, no such thing as the consequences of goodness, no such thing as heaven and hell.

They have existed since time immemorial and they have been all-pervasive. You just have not perceived them yet. Do you understand? These things have existed always. They continue to harm those who are foolishly ignorant of their existence and so blinded by the kilesas’ deceptions that they never glimpse the truth.

(…)

As I considered the cause, my thoughts seized on the path of practice that had led me to that realization. It was the same path that the Lord Buddha had taught: dana, sila, bhavana. This was the path that led me to that point. There is no other way to reach it. Reviewing my past practice, I conceded that the same path could lead others there as well. Maybe there were only a few, but there definitely were some who could make it. I could not deny that. The awareness that it would benefit at least some people encouraged me to begin teaching those who were worthy to be taught.

After that, monks began to gather around me in the forests and mountains where I lived, and I taught them to be resolute in their practice. Gradually, little by little, my teaching began to spread, until it extends far and wide today. Now people from across Thailand and around the world come to listen to Acariya Maha Boowa expound the Dhamma. Some travel here to hear me talk in person; some listen to taped recordings of my talks that are broadcast throughout Thailand on the radio and the Internet.

I can assure you that the Dhamma I teach does not deviate from those principles of truth that I myself have realized. Do you understand me? The Lord Buddha taught the same message that I am conveying to you. Having said this, I want to exclaim Sadhu! Although I am a mere mouse compared to the Buddha, the confirmation of that realization is right here in my heart. All that I have fully realized within myself concurs with everything that the Lord Buddha taught. Nothing that I have realized contradicts the Lord Buddha in any way. The teaching that I present is based on principles of truth which I have long since wholeheartedly accepted. That’s why I teach people with such vigor as I spread my message throughout Thailand.

Speaking conventionally, I talk boldly as if I were a conquering hero. But the Supreme Dhamma in my heart is neither bold nor fearful. It has neither loss nor gain, neither victory nor defeat. Consequently, my teaching emanates from pure, unadulterated compassion.

For example, if I see a dog-fight and proceed to pull them apart to stop them from biting each other, I don’t have any interest in who’s winning and who’s losing. It’s the dogs who care. They are the ones who are biting, so, they are the ones in pain. I simply grab and separate them so they will stop biting each other. Such is the nature of Dhamma. Dhamma tries to separate people who are always quarreling, always arguing over who is right and who is wrong.

This is akin to what I’ve said about present-day Thailand. The comparison is appropriate. Let the Dhamma speak for itself. At this time I am very involved with the world. No one is more involved than Acariya Maha Boowa. By that I mean that I am constantly engaged in separating the dogs of this world so they won’t keep biting each other.

These days, both lay people and monks act like dogs, shoving themselves forward and howling noisily as they fight for the honors. So I teach them Dhamma, which is equivalent to separating and restoring calm among fighting dogs. Dhamma represents the Truth. If we relinquish all that is false and hold only to that which is true, then both the people in our society and the monks who uphold the sasana will live in peace. But since all the dogs—both the good and the evil ones—are fighting right now, the country is in turmoil.

The Buddhasasana regards people’s hearts as the main staging ground. This great arena is now being broken up and scattered because those dogs are staging a dogfight in the one area which is most sacred to the hearts of all Thais—the Buddhasasana.

So I ask them all to cease and desist, for no benefit can be gained from fighting like dogs. For, in truth, there are no winners, only losers. Both those who win and those who lose are hurt in equal measure. So disengage, stand back, and accept reason as your guiding principle. In that way, Thailand, its citizens and the sasana will all have peace and happiness. Nothing disastrous will then befall the country.
(…)

Whether an arahant or not he was definetely brave and sure of his points! :slight_smile:

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True words :slight_smile:

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it’s totally believable that he had some experience, but whether it was the final lealization remains unclear

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in the ajahn mun bio (book), ajahn mun told his disciples he was an arahant. he also mentioned he remained as a forest dweller (secluded) until he no longer had doubts, before he started teaching others the way to arahantship. ajahn mun’s bio was written by ajahn maha boowa, who based it on his recollections of living with him for at least 3 years as i recall, and also interviewed as many close disciples of ajahn mun as he could. of course i’m sure the bio would still reflect a bias of maha boowa’s own personal understanding of arahantship and the exact details of the path. we can only confidently proclaim what we personally know to be true.

in one of maha boowa’s books, i believe the “arahataa magga and phala” book it has the dhamma talk where he publicly proclaimed his arhantship.

in the ajahn mun bio, it mentions the names of numerous eminent disciples who were ariya, some explicitly recognized by ajahn bio in the narrative of the story.

if you look at the ajahn mun lineage tree, there are quite a number that are supposedly ariya. whether ajahn mun or any of his disciples were arahants, i don’t know for certain, i’m just expressing my opinion.

if you guys haven’t checked out ajahn dtun (thiracitto), recorded dhamma talks of his are on the web, as well as a couple of books. i attended a weeklong visit of his to a monastery. his talks are riveting. he ordained with ajahn chah shortly after university, and right after deciding against going into grad school. after just one year, he attained stream entry, confirmed by ajahn chah. ajahn said something like, “this will be your last human rebirth.” (something like that), upon his stream entry attainment. don’t remember the exact wording, but to me that strongly implied arahantship, or at least non-return would be attained by the end of this human life. at worst, a stream enterer who would not ever take human rebirth again.

the important thing for me is, what ajahn dtun, ajahn maha boowa, ajahn mun were practicing and teaching as the essentials of the path. it matches exactly the sutta passages of the EBT that i consider the most important and indispensable parts . walk+sit 6pm-10pm. lie down in lion posture and resolve and wake at 2am. walk and sit till 6am. the rest of the day some chores need be done, alms, clean up, and free time walk and sit. mindfulness 24/7. mindfulness of death. 31 body parts. 9 stages of corpses. ajahn mun warning his disciples not to spend too much time in appana samadhi. ajahn mun did metta 3 times a day. the hours of day his awareness were so alert and sharp his disciples who had divine eye could never find a time he was not alert. for example, when they used their divine eye to check up on mun’s citta, they always found ajahn mun looking right back them with his divine eye knowing what was going on. the way they put up with tigers, shivering all night in the forest when it rained, every detail just seems to be straight out of the suttas. etc… i could gush all day about how awesome ajahn and his tree of disciples are.

so that gives the basis of my belief. if it was just hearsay by people saying, “oh so and so is an arahant”, i’d reserve my opinion until i looked into their character, conduct, what they’re teaching, etc.

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i just gave an example of his “odd theory” about citta .

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Thanks for it :anjal:

Just that no one misunderstand me or possibly @sandundhanushka: we were asked for our personal opinions and possible arguments for it. It doesn’t mean our opinion is binding on anyone or is necessarily true or that we don’t respect Ven. Maha Boowa as an accomplished master. If you don’t agree that is just fine because as long as you and us follow the Suttas we will not be in the wrong :slight_smile:

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I tend to have the opposite view. If someone speaks and says something that could practically come out of the suttas, then it’s likely they have little or no personal experience on the matter, and are just parroting suttas.

‘Being intrinsically bright and clear, the citta is always ready to make contact with everything of every nature. Although all conditioned phenomena without exception are governed by the three universal laws of anicca, dukkha, and anattã, the citta’s true nature is not subject to these laws. The citta is conditioned by anicca, dukkha, and anattã only because things that are subject to these laws come spinning in to become involved with the citta and so cause it to spin along with them. However, though it spins in unison with conditioned phenomena, the citta never disintegrates or falls apart. It spins following the influence of those forces which have the power to make it spin, but the true power of the citta’s own nature is that it knows and does not die. This deathlessness is a quality that lies beyond disintegration. Being beyond disintegration, it also lies beyond the range of anicca, dukkha, and anattã and the universal laws of nature. …’

His ideas about the mind are really not strange or fringe in the broader context of Buddhism. They would fit in very well with some strains of Mahayana Buddhism, including Zen.

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Yes, exactly it’s just our own interpretations. But,if anyone who’s willing to arrive at a conclusion our thoughts and comments could be helpful.whether mahaboowa is an arahant or not his endeavour to emphasise the importance of tranquillity and insight as two essentials required for awakening should be appreciated. And another positive quality that I see in him is that unlike other meditation masters he’s not trying to declare that his meditation method is the only way to awakening .

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Yes, indeed this is something no one can accuse him of.

He was very fierce and firm in his instructions but he did not bother to compare his approach to others.

He was more concerned to share back to the world his understanding and realization of the Dhamma, as well to inspire in others the so useful feeling of stirr and agitation with regard to the noble tasks, saṃvega, as the Buddha did - the AN4.113 being a good example of it:

So tena saṃvijjati, saṃvegaṃ āpajjati.
Saṃviggo yoniso padahati
Pahitatto kāyena ceva paramasaccaṃ sacchikaroti,
paññāya ca ativijjha passati.

He is stirred & agitated by that.
Stirred, he becomes appropriately resolute.
Resolute, he both realizes with his body the highest truth and, having penetrated it with discernment, sees.

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Are there any Sutta references for the citta?

smile
dhammarelax

“Luminous, monks, is the mind.
And it is defiled by incoming defilements.”

“Luminous, monks, is the mind.
And it is freed from incoming defilements.”

“Luminous, monks, is the mind.
And it is defiled by incoming defilements.
The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn’t discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that—for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person—there is no development of the mind.”

“Luminous, monks, is the mind.
And it is freed from incoming defilements.
The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that—for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones—there is development of the mind.”
–AN1.49 -52

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frankk
4d1
"in one of maha boowa’s books, i believe the “arahataa magga and phala” book it has the dhamma talk where he publicly proclaimed his arhantship." Will an arhant say about his own achievements in public? Will an arhant ever state that he’s an arhant in public? Well ,an “arhant” is the one who has completed his training in the noble path. Defilements will no longer arise in him.but saying somebody about ur own achievements suggests that the person is literally “boasting”. And this itself is apparently a defilement! . is it still possible for an arhant to say so?

If you read, or more importantly listen to the way he talks about it in Thai, you will understand that there is a chance he was not boasting at all. As I wrote earlier in this thread, it is all about the individual’s inclination and style.

In my view, whether fully perfected or not, Luangta Maha Boowa’s concern was to inspire among those close and around him the spiritual sense of urgency and stirr (saṃvega) that we see the Buddha occasionally seeking to inspire in his audience in the suttas (see AN4.113).

If you ignore the context in which he said what he said and did what he did, indeed you will find plenty of room for judging him otherwise and possibly as someone entangled by the loka dhammas of gain and loss, fame and anonymity, happiness and misery, praise and blame.

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Friends, I would like to take a moment to interject and pose the question of, is determining whether Venerable Maha Boowa was an arahant a beneficial question?

The fourth parajika exists, I think, not only to deter monastics from speaking falsely about their spiritual attainments, but also to show the ways in which boasting or questioning one’s spiritual attainments is idle speech.

The Buddha defines refraining from idle speech as:

“He speaks in season, speaks what is factual, what is in accordance with the goal, the Dhamma, & the Vinaya. He speaks words worth treasuring, seasonable, reasonable, circumscribed, connected with the goal.”
SuttaCentral

Is this topic in accordance with the Dhamma? :dharmawheel:

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Yes,I think we have to agree with Brenna . What it matters is not mahaboowa’s attainment but , the achievements of our own. and of course advice from an elderly priest like ven. Mahaboowa is indeed useful. accepting them or rejecting them is up to ourselves:slight_smile:. That’s why I say that we shouldn’t be restricted to one particular mode of practice. An unbiased self exploration of dharma is of great fruit.:bodhileaf:

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the topic was prompted by Frankk’s reference to Ven Maha Boowa as an arahant, as transpires from its first message, and it’s purpose was to find out the basis for such references and their validity, which i think is as important for upholding the right speech as anything else

in the course of the discussion many interesting relevant opinions have been voiced and sources cited, which all are beneficial for thorough understanding of the matter and practice in general, so in my view the topic has so far been sufficiently Dhammic

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My answer to this question is I think this topic in accordance with the Dhamma because the Dhamma tells us (lay people) in many places to examine the qualities of a monk before having faith (saddha) in that monk. In other words, the Dhamma does not encourage or promote blind faith in or reverence towards a person just because that persons wears a saffron robe. :deciduous_tree:

Inspiring, indeed, is that place where Arahants dwell, be it a village, a forest, a vale or a hill. Dhp 98

Here, Bhāradvāja, a bhikkhu may be living in dependence on some village or town. Then a householder or a householder’s son goes to him & investigates him in regard to three kinds of states: in regard to states based on greed, in regard to states based on hate & in regard to states based on delusion… MN 98

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I’m largely fully agree with the concept of Boowa on Citta.
Nothing samsaric can dilute it. It is only soluble in Nibbana.
And it is true that its nature is pure, but his moment to moment work is to serve the incoming information from the Samsara and not just deal with, but also accumulate it, record it, remade.
The shovel with which the garbage is hauled itself is completely clean, however, it appears dirty for the job you have. But that garbage can be cleaned. Completely.
On the other hand, if we consider that the intrinsic nature of consciousness diverges not the least of a computer program, seeing it operate from moment to moment, it is insubstantial in impermanent and conditioned. Each operation is conditioned by all previous. It is not very different from the behavior of a wave in the sea. Drop by drop, it is a vertical movement, which ends. But its consequences (his kamma) is the horizontal movement, and that does not end.
And no better vertical than the horizontal.
Both are energy of the same nature.
Citta, seen as vertical movement is completely Samsaric.
Citta, seen as horizontal movement, it is not.
Where you can end a wave?
Only in that place where nothing can move, because it is full, where it is not possible to make a depression because there is no room …
because there is ignorance.
That is, Nibbana.