We cannot escape what is produced and conditioned?

Dictionaries are always just indicators. We have to use context.

If we look at the texts in question, the word abhijayati is, in the same text, used not only with reference to causing extinguishment but also with reference to causing a rebirth in a good or bad place. You don’t attain such a rebirth in the sense that it already exists before you are reborn, in some ever-existing way. You bring it about by the actions that lead there. Same with extinguishment, which is brought about through practice of the awakening factors.

And how does someone born into a dark class give rise to a bright result? It’s when some person is reborn in a low family … But they do good things by way of body, speech, and mind. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm. That’s how someone born into a dark class gives rise to (abhijayati) a bright result.

This bright result of rebirth didn’t exist before they attained it, is what I’m saying.

Either way, more important than this is the repeated definitions of extinguishment as the ending of things. For example:

“Reverend, the ending of greed, hate, and delusion is called extinguishment.”

The end of greed, hate, and delusion—i.e. nibbana—doesn’t exist before it is attained.

One problem here is that when nibbāna is untranslated, it sounds like a THING. But it is primarily a process, a process of extinguishment, of going out of the defilements and suffering.

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I go with the teachers that teach that the essence of mind is empty. You cannot trace it. It has no defilements, no ego. If you would seek it with a flashlight, the light would find no footing. It would land nowhere and still it is not nothing. It is not merely empty. Inseperable from being empty it has an ability to know.

That it is capable to detect and has a sensitive nature, receptive. Like touching your skinn. The touch is detected. The knowing ability is something like that.

This is not the same as an eternal mind. What is not seen arising has not come into existence and cannot be called something eternal.

You’re not answering in a way that clarifies your stance.

Yes or no for each of these questions:

  1. Is asankhata the same as Nibbāna without remainder?

  2. is nibbāna without remainder the same as Nibbāna with remainder?

  3. Is asankhata the same as the eternal mind?

  4. Is the capacity to know the same as mind?

  5. Is the asankhata the same as the capacity to know?

  6. Is the eternal mind the same as Nibbāna without remainder?

This needs more explanation, i feel :innocent:

We can see greed, hate and delusion as defilement in gold or water.
The defilements are never an intrinsic part of gold and water.
That is why they can be removed.

While removing one never creates water or gold!

In the same way the peace, coolness of a purified mind is not created nor produced.
It is not the result of a Path but it are the natural qualities of the mind without clinging.

It is not really that Nibbana is produced or made. The Path only removes defilements.
Strange that this does not land in you.

There is no sutta that says Nibbana is a proces.

Nibbana is the definition of what happens when the burning Skandhas are extinguished. That is the first step.

Which mind you are referring to ? Is it any one of the five aggregates that you can identify with ?

Max, do you believe there is no mind when you are unconscious?

You have to find out first what is mind ? Where is mind ? Which is which is mind ?
Otherwise we just assumed there is a mind that you are familiar with yet which is not really the case .

It are both term, names, that i believe, indeed point to the same dimension:

“There is, mendicants, that dimension where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no wind; no dimension of infinite space, no dimension of infinite consciousness, no dimension of nothingness, no dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; no this world, no other world, no moon or sun. There, mendicants, I say there is no coming or going or remaining or passing away or reappearing. It is not established, does not proceed, and has no support. Just this is the end of suffering.” (Ud8.1)

Some believe this texts refers to nothing after a last death but i feel that is irrational. No rational person speaks about nothing after a last death this way. Maybe i am a bit firm in this but i feel it makes no sense at all to think here a mere cessation after a last death is described.

In essense the same, i believe. Like the empty space in a room is in essence the same with or without things in it. Or like the emptiness in two vessels is of the same nature.

No, asankhata refers to what does not arise, cease and change, and, i believe, such cannot be described in terms of time (impermanent/permanent), location (here or there) and in terms of existence or non-existence.

I believe it is the nature of mind to know. Mind is not really a thing but also not nothing. If one would search it, one cannot find it. At the same time it also cannot be denied.

Yes, it points to the same reality i believe. The words are different but i believe it poins to the same.
Just like anattanupassana and sunnatanupassana are different in words but the same in meaning (patisambhidamagga)

I do not believe that it is oke to speak of an eternal mind. I believe, asankhata does not equal eternalism. Asankhata also does not equal a doctrine of atta or just atta.

Green, hiding for what is coming

@Max says, “You have to find out first what is mind”

It’s just a word whose common definitions are:

  • mind - “the element or complex of elements in an individual that feels, perceives, thinks, wills, and especially reasons”

  • mind - “the part of a person that makes it possible for him or her to think, feel emotions, and understand things”

  • mind - the part of a person that thinks, reasons, feels, and remembers

Trying to be helpful. :pray:

You also know that all this in tibetan buddhism is called conventional mind, or what people conventionally believe what mind is. But Tibetan have a very different understanding of mind, just as Maha Boowa.

Suppose we see mind as that what processes sense info. Do you believe this is absent when you are unconscious?

Donald Rumsfeld once said, “You go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time.” As the debate here is in english and using the word ‘mind’ I think the debate must be conducted with these words/definitions in mind (pun intended!) :joy: :pray:

I think the debate must be conducted in such a way that i win the war :innocent:

So, for you, asankhata =Nibbāna= mind= the capacity to know.

You interpret this mind as independent of 5 aggregates, thus your notion of nibbāna with remainder and without remainder is the same, and unchanged with the death of arahant.

What’s the point of capacity to know when there’s no change? No knowledge can be produced. And you admitted that there’s no knowledge in parinibbāna. Or is there just unending samadhi kind of just knowing nibbāna for all time by the mind?

I would think that to have the characteristic of the capacity to know implies change. Implies able to have knowledge arises and ceases.

Can you agree that the mind can only know one thing at a time?

Wait a minute, I swear I’ve heard this question before :joy: :pray:

By me? Am I repeating myself by debating for too long? Past the point of rational people should give up already?

Heh, no, I’ve been trying to pose the same question to Green for quite awhile. If asankhata = Nibbāna = mind = the capacity to know, and all things that it knows are defilements and conditioned and we seek the end of the conditioned, then what good is a blank mirror that does not reflect anything? :pray:

So , what processes sense info are but a series of events . When one is unconscious , the mental processes are in a halting mode .

No, we are not aware of them but still going on.