What are pīti and sukha born of seclusion vis-a-vis the first jhāna

Although basically every meditation guide that discusses jhāna implies that the pīti and sukha of the first jhāna arise from concentration, that standard phraseology for the first jhāna in the suttas says it arises from seclusion, which seems to me rather vague. So what really is the nature of this phenomenon? It’s clear from the text that the focus is seclusion from sensuality and unskillfulness, but again this seems unclear; after all, one can have strong sense restraint and sīla, but neither experience the arising of these qualities nor enter jhāna. What then distinguishes more general seclusion from seclusion leading to jhāna? What, if any, is the role of concentration on a meditation object in this process?

There is the case where a monk, quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhāna: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation.

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Hi. Seclusion = seclusion from the five hindrances

The five hindrances include restlessness & remorse, which, even after sense restraint, can have remnant ‘vibrations’ stored in the body. Refer to the vibration metaphors in SN 46.55. Therefore, even though the mind may be relatively still & concentrated, if the vibration of restlessness is still felt within the breath & physical body, it seems jhana will not manifest. It seems the “calming” referred to in MN 118 (“passambhayaṁ”), MN 19 (“passaddho”) or MN 64 (“paṭippassaddhā”) must be quite profound for jhana to manifest.

All of the above falls seems to be part of “concentration” (“samadhi”). For example, MN 19 seems to clearly say the Buddha’s mind was concentrated prior to the 1st jhana:

My energy was roused up and unflagging, my mindfulness was established and lucid, my body was tranquil and undisturbed, and my mind was immersed in samādhi.

Āraddhaṁ kho pana me, bhikkhave, vīriyaṁ ahosi asallīnaṁ, upaṭṭhitā sati asammuṭṭhā, passaddho kāyo asāraddho, samāhitaṁ cittaṁ ekaggaṁ.

Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I entered and remained in the first absorption…

MN 19

It seems the suttas emphasize “viveka” (“seclusion”) for the 1st jhana and “unification” (“ekodibhāvaṁ”) for the 2nd jhana. However, both seems to be merely degrees of “concentration”. As mentioned, if there is 100% concentration (non-distraction) towards the breathing but vibrations can still be felt in the breathing then this seems to suggest there remains underlying remnants of the five hindrances remaining stored within the body. :dizzy:

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Very helpful answer! Thanks!

A follow-up: where do you find the distinction between the vibrations you discuss and the (relative) unstillness of mind due to vitakka and vicara?

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Piti can be experienced outside jhana, for example it’s the goal of basic skill development in the second tetrad of Anapanasati. It’s better to regard it in its broader function as part of the process described here, which includes tranquillity and insight:

“I myself, before my Awakening, when I was still an unawakened bodhisatta, saw as it actually was with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, but as long as I had not attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, I did not claim that I could not be tempted by sensuality. But when I saw as it actually was with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, and I had attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, that was when I claimed that I could not be tempted by sensuality.”—Majhima Nikaya 14

I think vitakka & vicara is something different.

When the stress vibrations of the hindrances fully dissolve, this seems to be the cause for rapture to arise. Then when rapture arises, the mind can be drawn towards the rapture. Thus the vitakka (movement) and vicara (exploration) towards the rapture is something different.

I doubt the movement of vitakka & vicara would be readily discernable as something significant until the second jhana is reached. I imagine the first jhana is extremely still, silent & ‘one’, which is why “ekaggata” is a factor of it. I imagine the common discussions & debates about vitakka & vicara are ‘overblown’. :dizzy:

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The vibrations you are talking about - are they not nervous tensions? I have noticed that with the letting go of mental obstacles - there are discharges of tension - accompanied by surges of dopamine (involuntary body movements) and waves of bliss appear. What do you think? :pray:t2: :sweat_smile:

I see similarities between ice showers and meditation in terms of - mechanism. It’s like when we don’t meditate we collect pain in the form of tensions in the body, and then when we meditate they are discharged and give pleasure. When there is less mental pain there is more bliss. (which is more like endocannabinoids in feeling).

Well the difference is that cold water inflicts pain, and then you have dopamine. And it is energizing rather than blissful. Pouring cold water is uncomfortable, but when you get out of the shower it’s cool/dopamine high.

Yes, I agree. The tensions are nervous/stress tensions. When they dissolve, bliss will appear. However, if these dissolutions/discharges of tension are short-term or ‘momentary’, the surges of bliss will also be short-term or ‘momentary’. It follows all experiences/surges of rapture/bliss will not necessarily constitute jhana. I recall the Commentary literature refers to ‘momentary rapture’. :dizzy:

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Vitakka and vicara relates rather to the site of consciousness, while these vibrations in the body relate rather to (unconscious) kammic resultants. One is the result of old kamma, the other is new kamma making. I have written various blog posts to elucidate a little bit the meaning of the Jhāna factors. One is: http://highermindart.com/home/jhana-paccaya-condition-of-meditation/. In case any one has interest in it. I also made a small video animation for the same purpose:http://highermindart.com/home/the-factors-of-jhana/
You may check it out if you like…

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My understanding of jhana is that is an effortless state that results from wisdom and not a concentration practice.

Therefore:

The footprints of all creatures that walk can fit inside an elephant’s footprint, so an elephant’s footprint is said to be the biggest of them all. In the same way, all skillful qualities can be included in the four noble truths.

MN 28

If we take this far enough:
seclusion is seclusion from the unwholesome = seclusion from suffering and cause of suffering = seclusion from craving and grasping/clinging

(5 hindrances work as particularization of the wider mechanics of craving and clinging)

To me this means, you have understood that suffering is the result of ‘‘active’’ clinging and grasping due to craving (for any 6 external base).
The result of that understanding is a knowledge of renouncing that activity.
Renouncing and stopping, getting revulsion towards the ‘active’ unwholesome efforts incrementally allows for the development of ‘seclusion from unwholesome states’.
The knowledge of that seclusion, is the knowledge of safety, the knowledge of diminished liability to suffer, so jhana = right composure, right stilling = calm because of knowing that you are less and less a pray of ignorance.

According to these line of thought, jhana is not a concentration practice but a result of wisdom.

More on seclusion from MN 28:

The interior earth element and the exterior earth element are just the earth element. This should be truly seen with right understanding like this: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ When you truly see with right understanding, you grow disillusioned with the earth element, detaching the mind from the earth element.

What then of this ephemeral body appropriated by craving? Rather than take it to be ‘I’ or ‘mine’ or ‘I am’, they still just consider it to be none of these things.

Here, in the simile of the saw we find jhana (samadhi) when persons are cutting you limb by limb. I take this not to be a ‘concentration’ effort but a effortless seclusion due to discerment of things as they really are:

“Even if low-down bandits were to sever you limb from limb, anyone who had a malevolent thought on that account would not be following my instructions.” My energy shall be roused up and unflagging, my mindfulness established and lucid, my body tranquil and undisturbed, and my mind immersed in samādhi. Gladly now, let fists, stones, sticks, and swords strike this body! For this is how the instructions of the Buddhas are followed.’

Here another account of seclusion due to wisdom:

If others abuse, attack, harass, and trouble that mendicant, they understand: ‘This painful feeling born of ear contact has arisen in me. That’s dependent, not independent. Dependent on what? Dependent on contact. They see that contact, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness are impermanent. Based on that element alone, their mind becomes eager, confident, settled, and decided.

Finally:

‘So this is how there comes to be inclusion, gathering together, and joining together into these five grasping aggregates. But the Buddha has said: “One who sees dependent origination sees the teaching. One who sees the teaching sees dependent origination.” And these five grasping aggregates are indeed dependently originated. The desire, adherence, attraction, and attachment for these five grasping aggregates is the origin of suffering. Giving up and getting rid of desire and greed for these five grasping aggregates is the cessation of suffering.’

So seclusion is seclusion from desire, adherence, attraction, and attachment for these five grasping aggregates.

If you find missunderstandings in the development of these thoughts please let me know.
Much metta,
Mario

I quite like how the Dīgha Nikāya reciters put it

“Endowed with this noble aggregate of moral discipline, this noble restraint over the sense faculties, this noble mindfulness and clear comprehension, and this noble contentment, he resorts to a secluded dwelling—a forest, the foot of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a cremation ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After returning from his alms-round, following his meals, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and sets up mindfulness before him.

“Having abandoned covetousness for the world, he dwells with a mind free from covetousness; he purifies his mind from covetousness. Having abandoned ill will and hatred, he dwells with a benevolent mind, sympathetic for the welfare of all living beings; he purifies his mind from ill will and hatred. Having abandoned dullness and drowsiness, he dwells perceiving light, mindful and clearly comprehending; he purifies his mind from dullness and drowsiness. Having abandoned restlessness and worry, he dwells at ease within himself, with a peaceful mind; he purifies his mind from restlessness and worry. Having abandoned doubt, he dwells as one who has passed beyond doubt, unperplexed about wholesome states; he purifies his mind from doubt.

“Great king, suppose a man were to take a loan and apply it to his business, and his business were to succeed, so that he could pay back his old debts and would have enough money left over to maintain a wife. He would reflect on this, and as a result he would become glad and experience joy.

“Again, great king, suppose a man were to become sick, afflicted, gravely ill, so that he could not enjoy his food and his strength would decline. After some time he would recover from that illness and would enjoy his food and regain his bodily strength. He would reflect on this, and as a result he would become glad and experience joy.

“Again, great king, suppose a man were locked up in a prison. After some time he would be released from prison, safe and secure, with no loss of his possessions. He would reflect on this, and as a result he would become glad and experience joy.

“Again, great king, suppose a man were a slave, without independence, subservient to others, unable to go where he wants. After some time he would be released from slavery and gain his independence; he would no longer be subservient to others but a free man able to go where he wants. He would reflect on this, and as a result he would become glad and experience joy.

“Again, great king, suppose a man with wealth and possessions were travelling along a desert road where food was scarce and dangers were many. After some time he would cross over the desert and arrive safely at a village which is safe and free from danger. He would reflect on this, and as a result he would become glad and experience joy.

“In the same way, great king, when a bhikkhu sees that these five hindrances are unabandoned within himself, he regards that as a debt, as a sickness, as confinement in prison, as slavery, as a desert road.

“But when he sees that these five hindrances have been abandoned within himself, he regards that as freedom from debt, as good health, as release from prison, as freedom from slavery, as a place of safety.

“When he sees that these five hindrances have been abandoned within himself, gladness arises. When he is gladdened, rapture arises. When his mind is filled with rapture, his body becomes tranquil; tranquil in body, he experiences happiness; being happy, his mind becomes concentrated.

DN 2

So when one sees that the hindrances are gone, rapture (Pīti) arises which, we could say, is a more intense form of joy (Pāmojja). This leads to tranquillity of the body and mind, and because of that tranquillity there is physical and mental bliss (sukha). This rapture and bliss is then said to pervade the entire body. Based on the suttas, and also in agreement with the commentaries, when there is Jhāna there is physical and mental bliss (sukha). The commentary to DN makes this clear, by stating that the sarīra also feels bliss. Sarīra there having the concrete meaning of the physical body, rather than the more fluid word “kāya”.

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This does not mean DO it means impermanence. No knowledge whatsoever of DO is necessary to make progress and it distracts and over complicates, but application to penetrate impermanence and overcome the illusion of continuity is essential.

“According to the discourses, not seeing the arising and passing
away of phenomena is simply ignorance, while to regard all phenomena as impermanent leads to knowledge and understanding.38
Insight into the impermanence of the five aggregates or of the six
sense-spheres is “right view”, and thereby leads directly on to realization.39”

—Analayo

This means impermanence as experienced both internally and externally:

"“And what is the development of the frames of reference? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, remains focused on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, remains focused on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.”

—Samyutta Nikaya 47.40

The mind has a primal preference for the ‘ripeness’ stage in the cycle of birth> death (Adam & Eve with the apple, the Apple logo, unwholesome roots), and this must be overcome by constant reference to and contemplation of the decline stage wherever it is evidenced internally or externally. In every situation there is an opportunity to see impermanence, this is wise attention.

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This does not mean DO it means impermanence. No knowledge whatsoever of DO is necessary to make progress and it distracts and over complicates, but application to penetrate impermanence and overcome the illusion of continuity is essential.

Dhamma greetings, friend:

As I see it, very progress is in some regard insight into Dependent origination.
I would dare to say that there is no such thing as ‘means impermanence but not dependent origination’, it is precisely because of D.O. that impermanence is meaningful.

"“And what is the development of the frames of reference? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, remains focused on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, remains focused on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.”

This can be taken in a phenomenological way, ‘as it apears’

  • that is the discernment of arising and passing away.
  • The actuality of the contents of the senses arising and passing

But I take impermanence not to be of the content of experience (being this a consequence of dependent origination) but about the neccesary conditionality of everything, that turns the all into a house of cards with no beggining.

  • it is at the level of knowledge and wisdom and doesnt need to be actualized through attention to the ‘content’ of the experience. In fact, the phenomenological impermanence of the content acts as a constant reminder of that knowledge.

We might be aware at the level of the contect (‘phenomenologicaly’) of the impermanence of something, just that is not enough for keeping us out of an unwholesome thing. Of course it can be a stepping stone that then allows for discernment of impermanence at the level of conditionality (DO).
This allows for the contemplation of impermanence regardless of stage, declining, not declining, evolving, biutiful, ugly; same dependently arisen nature.

Please be free to communicate any misunderstanding that you see on my thoughts for if you offer better perspective I will deeply appreciate it :slight_smile:

Metta, Mario

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