What the Buddha said to Ānanda about women: some textual issues

Yesterday I discussed the passage in DN 16 where Ānanda asks the Buddha about women. There I focused on interpretation, while here I look more closely at some textual details that bear on the authenticity of this passage.

As noted by Maurice Walshe, the passage appears to have been inserted arbitrarily. It is absent from the Sanskrit text. Although this portion of the Sanskrit is a reconstruction, such a significant passage could not have been overlooked. The Sanskrit continues with Ānanda’s question on the worship of the Buddha’s remains:

kathaṃ vayaṃ bhadanta parinirvṛte bhagavati bhagavataḥ śarīrapūjāyām autsukyam āpadyemahi
Sir, when the Buddha has become fully extinguished what should we do about honoring his remains?

With some differences in wording, this is similar to the Pali. That fact that it is shared suggests it is earlier than the question about women. (In fact I believe there are many reasons to think the Sanskrit version of this particular sutta is earlier than the Pali.) There are many other parallels to this, chiefly in Chinese, and if someone can take the time to check these that would be great! But for now let’s focus on the Pali.

What I noticed is that the Pali has a curious use of verbs. I couldn’t figure out quite what they implied in the question on women. But the striking thing is that exactly the same unusual verb pattern is found in the question on the Buddha’s remains, where it makes perfect sense. Ānanda begins with:

Kathaṃ mayaṃ, bhante, tathāgatassa sarīre paṭipajjāma
“Sir, how do we practice when it comes to the Realized One’s remains?”

The verb is first person plural; Ānanda is asking on behalf of the Sangha, what they should do as a group. The Buddha replies similarly, telling them (tumhe, i.e. the mendicants) to concentrate on their practice. The lay community will look after the funeral rituals. So far, so straightforward. But then Ānanda asks a second question, one that is only slightly different from before:

Kathaṃ pana, bhante, tathāgatassa sarīre paṭipajjitabban
“But sir, what is to be practiced when it comes to the Realized One’s remains?”

Here the active second plural verb has been replaced with the future passive participle, here rendered perhaps too literally with “to be practiced”. (This nuance is not captured in Anandajoti’s normally very precise translation.) Now, in many language contexts such a shift might not be all that significant. But the suttas are relentlessly consistent when it comes to such details of phrasing, and this shift is clearly intentional. And it is evidently felt in the conversation, as the Buddha does not rebuke Ānanda by telling him to stop asking the same question. Rather, he describes the funeral procedure, which is presumably to be done by the lay people. Thus the shift from first person plural to the impersonal passive voice clearly indicates that the subject was understood to be the lay people.

The Sanskrit text doesn’t include such a nuance; rather it makes it more explicit. Ānanda’s second question:

kathaṃ bhadanta brāhmaṇagṛhapataya etad āpādayiṣyanti
But sir, what should the brahmins and householders do?

Again, this is reconstructed, but the mention of brahmins and householders must have been in the (Tibetan, I think) source. It feels more idiomatic; the suttas don’t normally leave such shifts to be implied so subtly.

The passage gives a somewhat elaborate and interesting description of the funeral arrangements, which are more developed in the Pali. However in both sources we find one of the rare early references to a stupa; this sutta, in fact, is the prime source text for stupa worship in Buddhism.

Pali: Cātumahāpathe tathāgatassa thūpo kātabbo
A stupa should be built for the Realized One at the crossroads
Sanskrit: caturmahāpathe śarīrastūpaḥ pratiṣṭhāpyate
A stupa for the remains should be set up at the crossroads.

The mention of a stupa is one of many textual indications that the passage is a late one. It goes without saying that the Mahaparinibbana Sutta is a composite text, composed over a considerable period of time. The passages on stupas are not among the earliest of those sections, and it seems the section on women is later still.

But to return to the question on women, we find exactly the same verb structure there. Ānanda’s questions:

“Kathaṃ mayaṃ, bhante, mātugāme paṭipajjāmā”ti?
“Sir, how do we practice when it comes to women?”
“Adassanaṃ, ānandā”ti.
“ Not seeing, Ānanda.”
“Dassane, bhagavā, sati kathaṃ paṭipajjitabban”ti?
“But when seen, what is to be practiced?”

The shift from active second plural to future passive participle happens in exactly the same way. But in the question on funerals, it served a clear, if subtle, purpose: to shift the subject from the Sangha to the lay people. Here it’s just confusing. Surely it can’t indicate the same kind of shift, so why is it there? If such variations were common we might let it pass, but they’re not. And the problem is amplified by the abruptness of the text, as well as its absence from the Sanskrit.

Taking this into account, we have a clear case to argue that, not only was this passage a late insertion, but it was later than the passage on the funeral rites, and clumsily modeled after it.

For those of you who have followed the work of myself and Ven Brahmali on authenticity, you will know that one of our main arguments is that the authenticity of a passage cannot be determined with any probability by any one criterion. But when multiple independent criteria all point in the same direction, and the historical hypothesis is the simplest, we are on reliable grounds. In this case we have the following:

  1. Narrative: the question is arbitrarily inserted, interrupting the flow of the text.
  2. Style: The wording is unusually terse and elliptical.
  3. Parallels: It is absent from the Sanskrit. (We need to check the other versions!)
  4. Syntax: The verbal structure appears to have been copied from the immediately following passage on funeral rites, which itself is not old.
  5. Doctrine: The text as stated advocates an extreme position, which the commentary felt the need to explain in terms of more moderate and well known teachings elsewhere in the suttas.

All these issues are well explained by the hypothesis that the text was a late insertion. More specifically, they agree with my theory that such passages, advocating a significantly harsher attitude to women, were the result of a “rigorist” movement within the Sangha around the time of the Second Council.


I always thought it came into this Sutta (obviously written after the Buddha passed away) like “un cheveu dans la soupe” (what’s this hair doing in my soup?!) so I agree with your conclusion about the tempering near the time of the second council.

Now, is there a plan by you or Ajahn Brahmali, or other EBT experts to produce a complete document that list all the “sure”, “probable” Suttas amendments (there are some listed in your Authenticity of EBT document but it’s not comprehensive) that are not true Dhamma.

In the abscence of such reference document I’m keeping a certain mistrust towards the DN and MN collections (which seems often to be elaborations of the SN with plenty of narrative) and I mainly read the short Suttas with little to no narrative from the SN 1st and then the AN that are pure practice.


Sorry, no plans. I think this work is best done by way of essays and so on. We’re not even close to being able to agree on a comprehensive range of what is and is not authentic.

What might be possible, though, is to make a list of passages that are agreed as inauthentic, if such a list is recognized as only very partial.


I like this approach.
It helps us not throwing the baby out with the bathwater!


The only arguement I would have with this is that number 5. here, should really be number 1.

If it’s against the rolling, broad, sweep of the Dhamma, then it can’t be right.


I really like alaber’s idea. At least if we can start off with what Bhante Sujato suggests, it will be the beginning of a well intended approach to identify the true teaching of the Buddha.

With Metta


What do you think, @Brahmali? Should we say start a wiki page and build up a list of agreed inauthentic passages? Start with things that are obvious. It is something that people request quite often, and it would be handy for people to know. Probably best to start with the 4 nikayas.


Like! It’s going to controversial, of course, but nevertheless.


I could be fun! How about this:

  • We start a post.
  • The body of the post is edited by you and I.
  • Any proposals for passages for inclusion are made in the comments, either by us or by anyone else.
  • If you and I agree a passage is inauthentic, we add it. The emphasis should be on obvious cases, at least to start.
  • Each passage should be accompanied by a brief list of reasons why we think it’s inauthentic, like I put at the end of the post above.
  • We can also include references, etc.

Sounds good. If you would get it started, then I am on board.


This is fantastic news.
Many generations of keen Dhamma practitioners will be grateful to you both for this.
Thank you dear Ajahn and dear Bhante.


@Dharmachara thank you, I had missed this thread, and the wiki.

1 Like

Do you have actual arguments against his methodology or just ad hominems?


@aminah, or any moderator, Kindly move this part of the conversation to the older thread cited above (on what Ananda was told about women).

This quote never bothered me as I read its meaning like this:

Imagine a wife is headed overseas for a journey of many months, against her husband’s wish, and at the airport her distressed husband blurts out frantically,

But what shall I do about women?” Here it’s not general interactions with females at issue, but how and whether to stay celibate in the absence of his beloved wife. The wife laughs and says, “Don’t look at them, Darling.” Here not meaning avoid all eye contact, but simply not to look lustfully.

(The idea of “looking” can be innocent or loaded with sexual meaning. For example, think of the difference between a girl saying, “My boyfriend forgot lunch with me because he was busy looking at people on the beach,” versus her complaining, “… because he was busy looking at women on the beach!”)

“But what if I see them?” Here, seeing is more innocent; women are seen by me, and now what? “Don’t speak to them, Darling.” Here, not-speaking refers to avoid chatting them up, that is, not speaking to women in ways conducive to lust and infidelity. It calls for his wholesome restraint, not utter silence.

“But what if they speak to me?” Here, I imagine the wife leaning close to touch his cheek fondly, laughing gently as she answers, “Be mindful, Darling” - meaning that she has faith that he will be fine, able to maintain his fidelity in her absence. At that point the husband’s panic of doubt in himself subsides.

The scripture creatively re-worded to reflect this perspective:

“But Lord, will I be able to maintain chastity when you are gone?!” “Yes, Ananda, just don’t stare lustfully at women.” “But what if I’m face-to-face with a woman?” “Don’t chat her up, Ananda.” But what if she to talks to me?" “Just be mindful Ananda; you’ll do fine. You don’t need me here to maintain your celibacy.”


I actually think different methods work for different practitioners. Some may prefer ‘abstinence’, as in those with alcohol addictions, and others who find self-restraint too difficult might prefer a more analytical or exposure (assaāda) method of seeking drawbacks (ādinava).

:slight_smile: TY for this post. The Buddha giving practical personalized gentle advice to support a brother mendicant in a path which leads to full liberation, in such a way as could be remembered to be helpful for others: yes, that seems to be the pattern of what was demonstrated, remembered, …