What were Moggallāna's training methods for monks?

[Christopher]

I also would always advise someone to cultivate all four satipatthana, but since you quoted from Perspectives on Satipatthana, I did want to point out that Venerable Analayo, in his first Satipatthana book, states (p. 22):

Several discourses relate the practice of a single satipatthana directly to realization.

The discourses he cites are:
SN47.11

And how, Sāriputta, does one have a liberated mind? Here, Sāriputta, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. As he dwells contemplating the body in the body, the mind becomes dispassionate, and by nonclinging it is liberated from the taints.

“He dwells contemplating feelings in feelings … mind in mind … phenomena in phenomena, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. As he dwells contemplating phenomena in phenomena, the mind becomes dispassionate, and by nonclinging it is liberated from the taints.

SN47.37

Bhikkhus, there are these four establishments of mindfulness. What four? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. As he dwells thus contemplating the body in the body, whatever desire he has for the body is abandoned. With the abandoning of desire, the Deathless is realized.

“He dwells contemplating feelings in feelings … … mind in mind … phenomena in phenomena … having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. As he dwells thus contemplating phenomena in phenomena, whatever desire he has for phenomena is abandoned. With the abandoning of desire, the Deathless is realized.

and SN43.12

And what, bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world: this is called the path leading to the unconditioned….”

x … “And what, bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating feelings in feelings, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world….”

xi … “And what, bhikkhus, is the path leading to the unconditioned? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating mind in mind, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world….”

xii … “And what, bhikkhus is the path leading to the unconditioned? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating phenomena in phenomena, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world: this is called the path leading to the unconditioned….

I do believe that it is possible to reach liberation through specializing in the practice of one satipatthana, but that’s only because the other satipatthanas, and indeed all other relevant dhammas, will necessarily be experienced and understood before liberation is reached. It seems to me that one cannot contemplate very deeply on any one satipatthana without encountering all of the others, inextricably interwoven as they are.

It seems to me that’s what you’re saying too, sandundhanushka.

[Deeele]

@Christopher

I do believe that it is possible to reach liberation through specializing in the practice of one satipatthana

What is the basis of such “belief” or “conviction” here? The reading of some sutta translations?

SN 54.8 states:

So if a monk should wish: ‘May neither my body be fatigued nor my eyes, and may my mind, through lack of clinging, be released from fermentations,’ then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through mindfulness with in-&-out breathing.

Now, the above excerpt from SN 54.8 does not sound like arahantship to me. It sounds like some temporary respite.

For arahantship, the asava (taints; fermentations) must be destroyed; completely uprooted; incapable of ever flowing-out or arising again.

I would suggest to thoroughly analyze those many suttas you quoted to discern exactly what is written there in respect to the taints, the Deathless, etc.

AN 10.58 states: “All (skillful lokuttara) dhamma (practises) gain a footing in the Deathless”, which would include the sati-sampajanna practises of a stream-enterer, who would know the taste or flavour of the Deathless Nibbana (dukkha nirodha) even though not fully consummating Nibbana.

SN 13.1 describes the experience of a bona-fide stream-enterer:

for a noble disciple who is consummate in view, an individual who has broken through [to stream-entry], the suffering & stress that is totally ended & extinguished is far greater. That which remains… is next to nothing: it’s not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth, when compared with the previous mass of suffering. That’s how great the benefit is of breaking through to the Dhamma, monks. That’s how great the benefit is of obtaining the Dhamma eye.

@Christopher

it is possible to reach liberation through specializing in the practice of one satipatthana, but that’s only because the other satipatthanas, and indeed all other relevant dhammas, will necessarily be experienced and understood before liberation is reached. It seems to me that one cannot contemplate very deeply on any one satipatthana without encountering all of the others, inextricably interwoven as they are.

The factors of jhana do not include awareness of breathing or the physical body. Or, in the 13th stage of Anapanasati, it is written the primary meditation object is impermanence itself (rather than any specific nama or rupa dhamma, such as breathing, feelings, mental states, etc).

It seems apparent that the 1st satipatthana falls away as practise progresses (despite certain relatively small insights occurring in the 1st satipatthana about the mind, impermanence, etc).

[Christopher]

@Deeele

What is the basis of such “belief” or “conviction” here? The reading of some sutta translations? Or is this declaration of belief a declaration of arahantship from full realisation?

That’s funny, Deeele. I like that. The basis is just a reckoning based on my study and practice thus far. If I was an arahant, I wouldn’t need to use the word “believe”, would I? I could just state it as a fact. Where I’m from, the word “believe” can be used in the sense of “reckon”, “think”, “guess”, “estimate”.

It’s certainly not something I’m taking a stand on. I was just pointing out to sandundhanushka where Venerable Analayo had made a certain point relevant to sandundhanushka’s previous reply. I just listed the relevant sections of the suttas for everyone’s convenience.

Regarding the rest of your post, you may be right, my friend. But is there a way we can steer this discussion back to Moggallāna’s training methods?

[Upasaka_Dhammasara]

I just read that somewhere else but it made me think that the tradition of Abhidharma by Sāriputta makes me have the opinion that Sāriputta taught that style for helping to reach Sotapanna now. It kinda makes sense. Because it’s related knowing all sort divisions. By the time you become a sotapanna then meditation with analysis in Abhidhamma lessons should help you with Ven Moggallāna teaching. Since it was probably necessary that you understand how things are in words for you to then learn it in real life.

Second thoughts about Abhidharma now.