When the Buddha is not in Jhana, what state is he in?

Q & A
1

After eating the Buddha goes for a walk and then enters first jhana (sutta below).

Now here is the question:

  • If there is no upacāra-samādhi in the EBT
  • And the Buddha has no 5 hindrances
  • And he is not in any Jhana

What state is he in if he is not in any Jhana?

My answer is that Sloth is not a fetter, and therefore the Buddha gets tired and falls out of jhanas.

I appreciate the answers.

Sutta:

“Brahmin, when I am living supported by a village or town, I robe up in the morning and, taking my bowl and robe, enter the town or village for alms. After the meal, on my return from alms-round, I enter a wood. I gather up some grass or leaves into a pile, and sit down cross-legged, with my body straight, and establish mindfulness right there. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I enter and remain in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. As the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, I enter and remain in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and confidence, and unified mind, without placing the mind and keeping it connected. And with the fading away of rapture, I enter and remain in the third absorption, where I meditate with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.’ With the giving up of pleasure and pain, and the ending of former happiness and sadness, I enter and remain in the fourth absorption, without pleasure or pain, with pure equanimity and mindfulness. When I’m practicing like this, if I walk meditation, at that time I walk like the gods. When I’m practicing like this, if I stand, at that time I stand like the gods. When I’m practicing like this, if I sit, at that time I sit like the gods. When I’m practicing like this, if I lie down, at that time I lie down like the gods. This is the high and luxurious bed of the gods that I get these days when I want, without trouble or difficulty.”

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2

Sloth is incorporated in the sixth and seventh fetters, craving for fine-material and immaterial existence because exertion is not fully exercised towards the final goal.

The Buddha regarded insight meditation as taxing and used tranquillity as relaxation:

"And as I remained thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, thinking imbued with renunciation arose in me. I discerned that ‘Thinking imbued with renunciation has arisen in me; and that leads neither to my own affliction, nor to the affliction of others, nor to the affliction of both. It fosters discernment, promotes lack of vexation, & leads to Unbinding. If I were to think & ponder in line with that even for a night… even for a day… even for a day & night, I do not envision any danger that would come from it, except that thinking & pondering a long time would tire the body. When the body is tired, the mind is disturbed; and a disturbed mind is far from concentration.’ So I steadied my mind right within, settled, unified, & concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind would not be disturbed.”—-MN 19

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3

Thank you for the answer Paul. So then are you saying that the Buddha does get sloth? If he doesn’t get sloth, then what state is he in when he’s not in the jhanas and also not affected by the 5 hindrances? Thank you.

4

Arahants are still engaged in appropriate attention (yoniso manasikara).

“when the arahant after full awakening engages in right mindfulness, it’s with a sense of being disjoined from body, feelings, mind, and mental qualities. At the same time, he/she continues to engage in appropriate attention. Although the purpose now is different from that of an unawakened person, there is a purpose nonetheless.

“An arahant should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Although, for an arahant, there is nothing further to do, and nothing to add to what has been done, still these things—when developed & pursued—lead both to a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now and to mindfulness & alertness.” — SN 22:122

So even though arahants have completed the duties and tasks associated with the four noble truths—and have gained access to an unconditioned awareness outside of the dimension of the six senses—their attention, when sensitive to the world of the six senses, is still a purposeful activity.”—-Thanissaro

The function of appropriate attention:

“The Blessed One said, "Monks, the ending of the fermentations is for one who knows & sees, I tell you, not for one who does not know & does not see. For one who knows what & sees what? Appropriate attention & inappropriate attention. When a monk attends inappropriately, unarisen fermentations arise, and arisen fermentations increase. When a monk attends appropriately, unarisen fermentations do not arise, and arisen fermentations are abandoned. There are fermentations to be abandoned by seeing, those to be abandoned by restraining, those to be abandoned by using, those to be abandoned by tolerating, those to be abandoned by avoiding, those to be abandoned by dispelling, and those to be abandoned by developing.”—-MN 2

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5

I think it’s a bit of a misphrase to speak of the Buddha being in a “state”. We characterize jhanas as “states” as they have a simple, well-defined set of conditions. Outside of that, though, the mind of a Buddha would be just as fluid as that of anyone else: perhaps more so. They would be thinking, remembering, experiencing different emotions, paying attention to sense experiences, and so on. All of that is pretty much the same as you and I. The difference is, of course, that there are no defilements.

So when a normal person thinks of a bad experience in the past, they might get angry, the mind circles around it, reliving the feelings, maybe imagining what they’d say to that person, or how it could have been different. All of this serves some kind of purpose. It is how the human mind learns and digests from the past. It may be more or less healthy and coherent, however. Some people will just keep going over it, getting trapped in the past. Others will learn, more or less slowly, and be able to act more healthily in the future.

When a Buddha thinks of something in the past, there’s none of that. They just recall what happened, they know what the events were, they know what emotions were felt or actions taken. But now, in the present, they are not caught up in it. The issues that others need to resolve do not exist for them.

Think of the difference between an alcoholic and someone who has never been interested in drinking. They both might pick up a wine bottle. The physical experience is the same. The knowledge of what it is, of the potential addicting power of alcohol, is the same. But the non-alcoholic would simply put down the bottle and move on without a thought. Whereas the alcoholic would hold on to it, and even when they put it down, there would be a mind drawn to it, turning around in attraction and revulsion, digging into self-loathing, alternately wanting it and pushing it way.

That’s what freedom is. You’re not trapped in dysfunctional cycles. You pick it up and then you put it down. End of story.

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6

Thanks for the information, if I am correct in summarizing your response, basically you are saying he’s in “proper attention 24/7” or mindfulness/clear comprehension as the bare minimum default state when he’s not in jhana.

7

As indicated, the fetters have been severed but continue to be seen non-the-less, however the arahant has developed the skills and strengths to deal with every situation of neutralizing them through appropriate attention, which requires constant action, however the intensity varies with the situation as seen in the analogy of the cowherd in MN 19.

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8

Thanks for response. To summarize your response, he is in a normal state of experience just without any ruminating, which the ordinary worldling suffers from due to the hindrances and taints. (If I am correct in understanding).

9

= = = = = = = = = = =

I think both are saying the same thing, in two different ways! viz “mindful and aware, rid of desire and aversion for the world”

The following chinese agama sutta might be useful…

SA621
“If there is an arhat, with outflows dried up, who has done what was to be done, who has abandoned the burden, who has exhausted his fetters, and correctly known liberation: he also at that time still [1] abides in mindfulness of the body, observing the body: ardent, vigilant, mindful and aware, quieted in mind; [2] and of sensations; [3] and of the mind; [4] and abiding in mindfulness of dharmas, observing dharmas, even fully detached from dharmas.”

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10

Thank you for quoting the suttas–I believe this sutta which mentions celestial states in relation to the jhanas is the sutta “At Venāgapura” (Venāgapurasutta) AN 3.63 available here: SuttaCentral ?

11

To build on the comment from Bhikkhu Sujato, “We characterize jhanas as “states” as they have a simple, well-defined set of conditions”, I’d like to add that we also tend to refer to the four (or eight) jhana states as “jhanas” while one could argue that they are each quite different. There are several different ways of approaching this, but one could consider that the first and second jhanas are more inwardly focused (applied thought helping to direct the mind, then experiencing predominantly joy/bliss) as compared to the third and fourth jhanas, which may include the ability to engage with outward elements and practice equanimity towards them. From this perspective, a practitioner (dare I say you or I) could be in the jhana states for much of the day, while occasionally moving to other states, such as yoniso manasikara, for distractions like email or slightly healthier distractions like Discourse on SuttaCentral.

12

Hmm. I’m not sure how one concludes that the third and fourth jhanas are “outward”?
The notion of inward/outward involves a duality and a connection. Connection only applies to first jhana (i.e., “keeping it connected”). Contacts diminish with deeper absorption. With emergence from jhana, contacts gradually resume:

MN44:20.1: “But ma’am, when a mendicant has emerged from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, how many kinds of
contact do they experience?”
MN44:20.2: “They experience three kinds of contact: emptiness, signless, and undirected contacts.”

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13

I wouldn’t quite phrase it like that, as “ruminating” is a bit vague. There’s no reason why a Buddha (or any arahant) should not think reflectively about something; in fact this is mentioned several times in the Suttas. They just wouldn’t get caught up in it due to attachment.

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14

When the Buddha is not in jhana he is just being equanimous.
With Metta

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15

That’s not correct, for one thing Mara continued to tempt the Buddha for one year after enlightenment and equanimity alone is not sufficient for repulsion.

Mara:

"For seven years, I’ve dogged
the Blessed One’s steps,
but haven’t gained an opening
in the One Self-awakened
& glorious.”—-Sn 3.2

Appropriate attention is not exclusively equanimity, and practising equanimity and jhana is not conduicive to a balanced state of mind. The skill of balancing insight, concentration and equanimity is one that has been mastered by the arahant:

“An arahant should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Although, for an arahant, there is nothing further to do, and nothing to add to what has been done, still these things—when developed & pursued—lead both to a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now and to mindfulness & alertness.” — SN 22:122

“If he (one intent on heightened mind) were to attend solely to the theme of equanimity, it is possible that his mind would not be rightly concentrated for the ending of the fermentations. But when he attends periodically to the theme of concentration, attends periodically to the theme of uplifted energy, attends periodically to the theme of equanimity, his mind is pliant, malleable, luminous, & not brittle. It is rightly centered for the stopping of the fermentations.”—AN 3.100 xi-xv.

Note: in the case of the unenlightened, “uplifted energy” means investigation and right effort. For the as yet unenlightened investigation and insight takes this form:

"And what are the ideas fit for attention that he does attend to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of becoming does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of becoming is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance is abandoned. These are the ideas fit for attention that he does attend to. Through his not attending to ideas unfit for attention and through his attending to ideas fit for attention, unarisen fermentations do not arise in him, and arisen fermentations are abandoned.

“He attends appropriately, This is stress… This is the origination of stress… This is the cessation of stress… This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing.”—MN 2

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16

Ahhhhh. Thanks for this quote. I’ve added “the foundation of” to Voice examples:

AN3.102:1.3: If a mendicant dedicated to the higher mind focuses solely on the foundation of immersion, it’s likely their mind will incline to laziness.
AN3.102:1.4: If they focus solely on the foundation of exertion, it’s likely their mind will incline to restlessness.
AN3.102:1.5: If they focus solely on the foundation of equanimity, it’s likely their mind won’t properly become immersed in samādhi for the ending of defilements.

:pray:

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17

If the arahant descends from a higher state to the highest stage of equanimity, they would be aware that the perception of form persists, and that is the result of discernment. So insight accompanies concentration and equanimity :

"Then there is the case where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, though followed by a sequel. For even there there’s a confining place. What is the confining place there? Just that the perception of form has not ceased. This is the confining place there.”—-AN 9.42

Discernment always accompanies right concentration:

"And furthermore, the monk has his theme of reflection well in hand, well attended to, well-considered, well-tuned[1] by means of discernment.

“Just as if one person were to reflect on another, or a standing person were to reflect on a sitting person, or a sitting person were to reflect on a person lying down; even so, monks, the monk has his theme of reflection well in hand, well attended to, well-pondered, well-tuned by means of discernment. This is the fifth development of the five-factored noble right concentration.”—AN 5.28

18

The Buddha explain that point:

“Aggivessana, I recall teaching the Dhamma to an assembly of many hundreds. Perhaps each person thinks: ‘The recluse Gotama is teaching the Dhamma especially for me.’ But it should not be so regarded; the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma to others only to give them knowledge. When the talk is finished, Aggivessana, then I steady my mind internally, quieten it, bring it to singleness, and concentrate it on that same sign of concentration as before, in which I constantly abide.”
*** Mahasaccaka Sutta, MN 36

jhanas are absorption (something goes into something) and therefore a tool for the Path while there is a -self dependence. Of course it doesn’t mean the Buddha or arhants cannot be established in some jhana if there is that case. Just it means there is not some relation of dependence with nibbana when no more defilements.

The Buddha was not just a mystic. Such thing happens in the rest of religions. In Dhamma, the truth is anatta and the final freedom is developed among the phenomena of the world. Death is non-relevant to find the Truth. Different of theism or similar.