5 Buddha's unique inventions

Is jhana and brahmaVihara buddha’s unique invention ?

No, they are hindu invention

But why did buddha use hindu inventions ?

Because there’s nothing wrong about it

How is hindu meditation different from buddhists’ then ?

Their jhana is not based on mindfulness and they still cling to concept of self

How does hindu describe jhana ?

Born as a hindu I can only conclude that only early hindus know what jhana is
And There are many vedas but some vedas got lost due to age/time maybe the jhana information got lost too

Personaly I think the buddha explained jhana better than any hindu I know

So do you think buddha has unique invention at all or he is just a hindu copycat ?

First we need to agree that unique invention is something that is unheard before

There are 5 buddha’s unique inventions

The 5 buddha’s inventions are the base of physic power, noble 8 fold path,mindfulness meditation, dependent origination and the teaching about feeling

Sn47.31
At Sāvatthī.

“‘This is the observation of an aspect of the body.’ Such, mendicants, was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in me regarding teachings not learned before from another. ‘This observation of an aspect of the body should be developed.’ … ‘This observation of an aspect of the body has been developed.’ Such was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in me regarding teachings not learned before from another.

‘This is the observation of an aspect of feelings.’ … ‘This observation of an aspect of feelings should be developed.’ … ‘This observation of an aspect of feelings has been developed.’ …

‘This is the observation of an aspect of the mind.’ … ‘This observation of an aspect of the mind should be developed.’ … ‘This observation of an aspect of the mind has been developed.’ …

‘This is the observation of an aspect of principles.’ … ‘This observation of an aspect of principles should be developed.’ … ‘This observation of an aspect of principles has been developed.’ Such was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in me regarding teachings not learned before from another.”

Sn51.9
“Mendicants: ‘This is the basis of psychic power that has immersion due to enthusiasm, and active effort.’ Such was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in me regarding teachings not learned before from another. ‘This basis of psychic power … should be developed.’ … ‘This basis of psychic power … has been developed.’ Such was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in me regarding teachings not learned before from another.

‘This is the basis of psychic power that has immersion due to energy, and active effort.’ … ‘This basis of psychic power … should be developed.’ … ‘This basis of psychic power … has been developed.’ Such was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in me regarding teachings not learned before from another.

‘This is the basis of psychic power that has immersion due to mental development, and active effort.’ … ‘This basis of psychic power … should be developed.’ … ‘This basis of psychic power … has been developed.’ Such was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in me regarding teachings not learned before from another.

‘This is the basis of psychic power that has immersion due to inquiry, and active effort.’ … ‘This basis of psychic power … should be developed.’ … ‘This basis of psychic power … has been developed.’ Such was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in me regarding teachings not learned before from another.”

Sn56.12
‘This is the noble truth of suffering.’ Such was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in the Realized Ones regarding teachings not learned before from another. ‘This noble truth of suffering should be completely understood.’ … ‘This noble truth of suffering has been completely understood.’ …

‘This is the noble truth of the origin of suffering.’ … ‘This noble truth of the origin of suffering should be given up.’ … ‘This noble truth of the origin of suffering has been given up.’ …

‘This is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering.’ … ‘This noble truth of the cessation of suffering should be realized.’ … ‘This noble truth of the cessation of suffering has been realized.’ …

‘This is the noble truth of the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering.’ … ‘This noble truth of the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering should be developed.’ … ‘This noble truth of the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering has been developed.’ Such was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in the Realized Ones regarding teachings not learned before from another.”

36.25
“‘These are the feelings.’ Such was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in me regarding teachings not learned before from another.

‘This is the origin of feeling.’ …

‘This is the practice that leads to the origin of feeling.’ …

‘This is the cessation of feeling.’ …

‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of feeling.’ …

‘This is the gratification of feeling.’ …

‘This is the drawback of feeling.’ …

‘This is the escape from feeling.’ Such was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in me regarding teachings not learned before from another.”

Sn12.10
“Mendicants, before my awakening—when I was still unawakened but intent on awakening—I thought: ‘Alas, this world has fallen into trouble. It’s born, grows old, dies, passes away, and is reborn, yet it doesn’t understand how to escape from this suffering, from old age and death. Oh, when will an escape be found from this suffering, from old age and death?’

Then it occurred to me: ‘When what exists is there old age and death? What is a condition for old age and death?’ Then, through proper attention, I comprehended with wisdom: ‘When rebirth exists there’s old age and death. Rebirth is a condition for old age and death.’

Then it occurred to me: ‘When what exists is there rebirth? … continued existence … grasping … craving … feeling … contact … the six sense fields … name and form … consciousness … ‘When what exists are there choices? What is a condition for choices?’ Then, through proper attention, I comprehended with wisdom: ‘When ignorance exists there are choices. Ignorance is a condition for choices.’

And so, ignorance is a condition for choices.

Choices are a condition for consciousness. … That is how this entire mass of suffering originates. ‘Origination, origination.’ Such was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in me regarding teachings not learned before from another.

Then it occurred to me: ‘When what doesn’t exist is there no old age and death? When what ceases do old age and death cease?’ Then, through proper attention, I comprehended with wisdom: ‘When rebirth doesn’t exist there’s no old age and death? When rebirth ceases, old age and death cease.’

Then it occurred to me: ‘When what doesn’t exist is there no rebirth? … continued existence … grasping … craving … feeling … contact … the six sense fields … name and form … consciousness … ‘When what doesn’t exist are there no choices? When what ceases do choices cease?’ Then, through proper attention, I comprehended with wisdom: ‘When ignorance doesn’t exist there are no choices. When ignorance ceases, choices cease.’

And so, when ignorance ceases, choices cease. When choices cease, consciousness ceases. … That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases. ‘Cessation, cessation.’ Such was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in me regarding teachings not learned before from another.”

These are all non hindu inventions invented by the buddha

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“Some of the Buddha’s meditative techniques were shared with other traditions of his day, but the idea that ethics (sila) are causally related to the attainment of “religious insight" (Sanskrit: prajñā) was original.”—-Wikipedia

“Sn” is an abbreviation of Sutta Nipata.

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Yes I remember reading a hindu scripture saying how rsi viswamitra created another heaven to make gods envy

And Do you mean mundane insight or supramundane insight ?

Can you back up anything you wrote in your post? Also, I don’t understand if that’s a short essay, because I don’t see what you want to discuss?

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Do you argue jhana is not a hindu practice or hindus didn’t do jhana correctly at that time ? I will give you suttas based on your answer

There are only 5 buddha’s inventions that’s the point

But how do the Hindu scriptures define and explain practice of brahma viharas and jhanas?
Please consider this discourse regarding practice of brahma viharas which leads to heart’s release from impurities:

SN 46.54 Mettasahagatasutta
https://suttacentral.net/sn46.54/en/sujato

:anjal:

Who do you reply to ?

jhana and brahmavihara is not something that buddha never heard before instead those 3 practices were never heard before by the buddha

Furthermore buddha said when he was a hindu in his past life he practiced brahmavihara

Yes, I argue that Jhana was not a hindu practice and that Hindus didn’t do Jhana correctly at that time - there was even no ‘Hinduism’ at the Buddha’s time. Please provide sources. Thanks

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For your first argument that hindus didn’t know and practice jhana

Dn1
There are some ascetics and brahmins who speak of extinguishment in the present life. They assert the ultimate extinguishment of an existing being in the present life on five grounds. And what are the five grounds on which they rely?

There are some ascetics and brahmins who have this doctrine and view: ‘When this self amuses itself, supplied and provided with the five kinds of sensual stimulation, that’s how this self attains ultimate extinguishment in the present life.’ That is how some assert the extinguishment of an existing being in the present life.

But someone else says to them: ‘That self of which you speak does exist, I don’t deny it. But that’s not how this self attains ultimate extinguishment in the present life. Why is that? Because sensual pleasures are impermanent, suffering, and perishable. Their decay and perishing give rise to sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, this self enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. That’s how this self attains ultimate extinguishment in the present life.’ That is how some assert the extinguishment of an existing being in the present life.

But someone else says to them: ‘That self of which you speak does exist, I don’t deny it. But that’s not how this self attains ultimate extinguishment in the present life. Why is that? Because the placing of the mind and the keeping it connected there are coarse. But when the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, this self enters and remains in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and confidence, and unified mind, without placing the mind and keeping it connected. That’s how this self attains ultimate extinguishment in the present life.’ That is how some assert the extinguishment of an existing being in the present life.

But someone else says to them: ‘That self of which you speak does exist, I don’t deny it. But that’s not how this self attains ultimate extinguishment in the present life. Why is that? Because the rapture and emotional excitement there are coarse. But with the fading away of rapture, this self enters and remains in the third absorption, where it meditates with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, “Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss”. That’s how this self attains ultimate extinguishment in the present life.’ That is how some assert the extinguishment of an existing being in the present life.

But someone else says to them: ‘That self of which you speak does exist, I don’t deny it. But that’s not how this self attains ultimate extinguishment in the present life. Why is that? Because the bliss and enjoyment there are coarse. But giving up pleasure and pain, and ending former happiness and sadness, this self enters and remains in the fourth absorption, without pleasure or pain, with pure equanimity and mindfulness. That’s how this self attains ultimate extinguishment in the present life.’ That is how some assert the extinguishment of an existing being in the present life.

These are the five grounds on which those ascetics and brahmins assert the ultimate extinguishment of an existing being in the present life. Any ascetics and brahmins who assert the ultimate extinguishment of an existing being in the present life do so on one or other of these five grounds. Outside of this there is none. The Realized One understands this … And those who genuinely praise the Realized One would rightly speak of these things

Yes, thanks. Who are the ‘Hindus’ here in DN 1?

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The brahmins are the hindus here

Ok, well, Brahmins are Brahmins, so historically the term “Hinduism” or “Hindu” was not used yet. Do you agree?

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They are the same, you can call them brahmanism or earlier hinduism

Thanks, I wanted to see if you’re interested in historical accuracy, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.

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How do you call them then ?
What we know is these people believed in caste system and they recited the 3 vedas

If You don’t like the word hindu you can call them with other names these don’t change my point that jhana and brahmavihara is not buddha’s invention

Yes I think I agree with you here I think the later group called hindus contradicts the earlier brahmins

Please teach me about hindu and its history it’s clear that you have some knowledges that I don’t have

Thanks :pray::pray:

There is already some good research to your topic, for example

The two traditions of meditation in ancient India” by Bronkhorst or
The origin of Buddhist meditation” by Wynne

[Edit: link corrected]

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So what are you arguing ? Do you argue that all those brahmins are buddhists but strayed from the previous buddha’s path ? Or do you agree with me that both jhana and brahmavihara is not buddha’s invention ?

And Your first link doesn’t work but thanks for the second link

I don’t see much value in defending a position that is not backed up by sources. A position in itself is maybe interesting for oneself, but becomes convincing only when it’s built on a case you can communicate…

When you claim: “Brahmins had brahmavihara practice” then for example I’d like to see sources from the samhitas, brahmanas, or early upanisads.

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