A few terms to consider

The willingness to take on these wrestles with words, which from the outset it must be known can never be perfectly solved, is just one of the reasons I have such reverence and inestimable gratitude for those who take on the challenge of translating these precious texts.

On the “coming together” issue, as a matter of curiosity, (certain there’ll be a good reason for it) I’m intrigued about why you appear to have moved away from “unity”, or “unification”. I followed the recordings of a metta retreat you led in 2011 during which, if I remember correctly, you advocated using “unity” / “unification”.

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words meaning “the highest point” have also the connotation of “coming together”, if we imagine a triangle top, it’s the point where the triangle’s legs meet or come together, and so i think a suitable semantic series for samādhi could be

climax, culmination, apogee, summit, pinnacle

summit is especially tasty as it sounds similar to samādhi

only that right summit sounds kind of odd, but after dwelling on it it starts resonating

Probably that was for ekaggata, i’m guessing. But maybe, unification is good for samādhi, I am still considering it.

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The suttas don’t really say anything about muditā as such. What we know is mostly taken by analogy from anumodanā and its variants, which we presume mean the same thing. And in that context it is true to say it is, so far as I know, always expressed externally, that is, you anumodana with someone else. But then, perhaps that’s precicely what the anu- signifies: rejoicing together with.

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Are you not keen on using ‘absorption’ for jhana? I agree the problem with stillness is it’s too ordinary in that there are many states of stillness without being jhana.

I dont’ care for ‘ecstatic’ for the same reason as ‘illumimnation’–possibly too many other connotations…

“Absorption” is okay I guess, but I’ve never been that taken with it.

It seems to me that the Pali jhāna draws on two linguistic threads, both of which are found in the Suttas: one is a steady and focused attention (= absorption), and the other is radiance (= illumination). But I don’t know of any English word that can capture both aspects.

I’d like to draw out the aspect of illumination, because I think it’s something that is often overlooked in modern discourse on jhānas.

While it’s closely associated with “pleasure”, jhāna doesn’t actually mean that, so I’d rather stay away from “ecstacy” (quite apart from other problems with that word).

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candescence? with a little stretch

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:pray:

Dear Bhante Sujato,

You’re onto something about radiance for jhana. Please see description below:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/radiant

A good synonym for abpsorption is immersion. Now the issue is how to join the two together to evoke that feeling. Radiant immersion? :grinning: he he he hehe

As for mudita, the closest I could get was empathetic happiness/joy. That’s the simplest and best way I can describe it for myself. Altruistic doesn’t really match it.

with respect and reverence,
russ

:pray:

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Hi Bhante,

Quick question.

Would the sentence “sukhino cittaṁ samādhiyati” be found in any sutta in particular?

The reason I ask is for I really like the succinctness of it. Also, I can link it to what we see the Buddha saying in suttas like the AN 10.2 and SN 12.23.

With reverence and respect, :smile:

Gabriel

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@ Gabriel, just saw you question and thought I’d reply. It’s a common passage, which I also like; here’s the page of results from a search on SC

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Thanks Linda!

I don’t know why but the first time I tried to search it nothing like this came up (ergo my curiosity and question)!

I will keep this link in my bookmarks!

:smile:

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Gabriel, I’ve had that happen with various searches as well, and I’m never quite sure why some work, and others not. For this one, I changed the to . SC doesn’t seem to always (ever? don’t know) recognize ṁ.

@blake is currently refining the search, so hopefully these things will improve.

The m-overdot is, alas, not used on SC. Instead we use the woeful m-underdot. Truly, these are sad times.

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Search should be ṁ agnostic, in fact it treats ṁ ṃ, ṅ and n (before ‘ti’) as equivalent, but this is a fairly recent change.

@blake @sujato

Truly, these are sad times.

:smile: Thanks Bhante & Blake for the info (and all your work). Whatever works is fine with me, I’m just very grateful to have SC!

Re the ṁ, the other day, I just copied the pasage Gabriel quoted

into the search and nothing came up at first. When I replaced ṁ with ṃ, voila.

:pray:

Dear @gnlaera,

The sentence can also be found in MN 118 - Anapanasati Sutta. Please forgive if this was already mentioned.

with añjali and mettā,
russ

:pray:

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Dear bhante Sujato,

Greetings from Bodhinyana! I think your project is a good thing and I hope you are doing well. Here are just some thoughts. Maybe they can be of some help.

metta - ‘Loving kindness’ still sounds artificial to me even after hearing it many times. ‘Kindness’ and ‘goodwill’ are too weak. ‘Love’? I’d say yes! In context it will already have different connotations to people. (like ‘a mind filled with love’ or something)

mudita - I once came across the word ‘compersion’: [1. The feeling of joy one has experiencing another’s joy, such as in witnessing a toddler’s joy and feeling joy in response.] However, I had never heard of this word before, and neither will anybody else. :smiley: ‘Rejoicing’ is rather nice, but it is still not really natural. In English we say ‘I am happy for you’, so perhaps ‘happiness for others’? I’m not sure how it well work in context, but at least it instantly gives me a hint of the emotion.

jhana - ‘Illumination’ feels more like insight (aloko udapadi?). Also, ‘the third illumination’ sounds wrong to me. For similar and other reasons I do not really like ‘absorption’ either. As ‘jhayati’ is usually ‘meditation’, perhaps ‘jhana’ can simply be ‘meditative state’? Nice and neutral, adopting existing terms that people understand–as it seems to me the Buddha had done–instead of inventing our own. The context will make it clear that it is not just any state.

bhikkhu - Cool, I like ‘mendicant’ and was already using it in myself! It gives the renunciant feel which actually is inspiring as well. ‘Bhikkhuni’ can be ‘female mendicant’, but usually the pronouns will make it clear anyway:

‘One morning, after dressing herself and taking her bowl and robe, the mendicant Vajira entered Savatthi for alms. When she had … etcetera’

nibbana - I agree. It simply does not mean ‘emancipated’ or ‘freedom’ or ‘unbound’ or whatever. You might as well use ‘cheese sandwich’ for ‘madhu’, just because you don’t like honey. And not translating ‘nibbana’ is missing the point that it is just another term. It deserves no special treatment above peace, liberation, cessation, fading away, ending etc. Actually, it is just a metaphor… So ‘extinguishment’? Yes, please! It’s not upsetting, it’s nice. Or perhaps I’m just cold hearted, but I personally never once got emotional when I saw a flame go out!

A slight problem with ‘extinguishment’ of course, is that ‘to extinguish’ means ‘to put out’ rather than ‘to go out’. Wherever it works, perhaps translate the verbs with ‘to go out’ instead of ‘to be extinguished’. The connection between the two is easily made by people. I might get something like:

‘Immediately after leaving the fourth meditative state, the Lord fully went out. When the Lord fully went out, upon his full extinguishment, the venerable Ananda delivered this verse: …’ dn16

Something like that… still learning! But at least it makes things alive, and it sort of sounds like something somebody might actually say (although ‘attaining nibbana’ would nowadays be more common…)

samadhi - I like the idea behind it, but ‘convergence’ sounds weird. It also reminds me of mathematics… which required a lot of concentration. :stuck_out_tongue: ‘Stillness’, I agree, there are already other terms with that meaning. Perhaps is the least of all evils, though? I would definitely pick some translation, not leave it in Pali. ‘Ecstatic stillness’ and such like, are just too artificial to my taste. Its like another cheese sandwich. I also would love some term that has this ‘one-going’ type of idea. ‘Unification’ sounds sort of decent, but also just as cold and dry as convergence. ‘Undividedness’? I don’t know, to be honest. Please let us know how you go and what you settle upon.

Question: Are there any places in the suttas where samadhi is used outside of the context of meditation?


Please keep us updated. I’m learning from it as well and am tinkering on some of my own translations as a practice, using some of your ideas as well. If you’d like, I might post a few of my attempts at some point. Perhaps I have a few decent ideas you can use. Let me know. Sometimes it’s the small things that make a lot of difference, instead of picking certain terms.

It’d be nice to see some of your attempts too, when possible.

With compersion…

Sunyo

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Thanks, these are well considered, and I got a laugh out of cheese sandwich!

Actually, I had a bit of an epiphany about this the other day. I have just done a metta retreat in a Christian abbey. I noticed the many figures of Madonna with child, which of course is exactly the image used in the Metta Sutta to exemplify metta. And I realized that no-one would ever say that a mother has “loving-kindness” for her child. She loves her child, there is simply no other word that is adequate.

There is, it is true, a certain justification for the use of loving-kindness, since Pali does have several words that cover the range of the English “love”.

I discussed this with the abbot of the abbey, and asked what they used in Italian. He said they just use amore, and it is clear in context what kind of love is being spoken of.

I suspect that the use of “loving-kindness” is a symptom of the uncomfortable relationship that modernist Theravadins have with emotions. It is distancing, comfortably isolated, not something that poses a threat. “Love” is too real, and too challenging.

I have tried this, actually, and I would like to do it, but it is difficult to get the phrase ringing right.

It’s in the Vinaya, where it refers to “putting together” a fire:

https://suttacentral.net/pi/pi-tv-bu-vb-pc56

This is an interesting and suggestive context, bearing in mind the significance of the whole metaphor of fire and extinguishment, but also jhāna as illumination.

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Thanks Bhante, I will look into it.

Very clear and insightful. Shows the inadequacy of simply “good-will” as well.

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