About gay relationship

Q & A
41

@sujato

Good luck then .

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42

@Pasanna

Good luck to you too .

43

Hi @Raaj

I don’t know if you’re still around… I’ve just got around to looking at this thread properly.

But if I may offer my answers to some of your questions:

  1. About being LGBTQI and rebirth destinations:

Remember the opening verses in the Dhammapada? Here they are from the English translation currently on Sutta Central:

Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.

Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow.

And remember also the teaching on not being unwisely attached to rites and rituals (as mentioned in MN 2 for instance)? Well I know it’s specifically pointing at “religious/spiritual” rituals and rites. However, taken in conjunction with the 1st two Dhammapada verses and also taken in conjunction with the Buddha’s teaching that Intention is the most important aspect of Kamma; for instance from AN 6.63:

“Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, and intellect.

… Then our focus, must be, regardless of what we may or may not do to each other in the bedroom, our Intentions towards our partner/partners. And thus we come to, not our specific sexual activities, but to our mental/emotional intentions. They are defined in SN 45.8, and I quote:

“And what, bhikkhus, is right intention? Intention of renunciation, intention of non-ill will, intention of harmlessness: this is called right intention.

Thus as long as any person treats their sexual partner with a sense of letting go - not wanting to control them; with loving kindness and with compassionate gentleness; they will be safe in their actions as far as they relate to this life or the next.

  1. Regarding incest.

I know it’s not socially accepted and biologically stupid. But it has happened, sometimes without people realising. And I think again, it’s best to be guided by Right Intention when faced with such situations. Afterall, we don’t know what people’s specific history, kamma and troubles are.

Finally, I just want to say that I can understand that it’s hard to ask tricky questions and then perhaps feel like one is being judged - even when perhaps one isn’t. It took courage to ask and I hope that same courage will give you a chance to consider that perhaps no one here wishes you any ill or harm. I’m sure of that. Sometimes, I am not suggesting this is the case for you, I’m just thinking of my own experiences, but sometimes, when we feel insecure about something; or scared or just really wanting our answers to comfort us or our ideas; and they don’t - well it can feel like an attack, even when it isn’t. I find in my own life, it’s more and more okay for others to disagree with me; I’ve learned that it doesn’t mean that they wish me ill, indeed they may wish me well and still disagree with me and that’s okay.

I hope you find what you’re looking for and I’m sure I speak for everyone in wishing you peace and happiness.

With metta

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44

Well said, Kay, thank you for this! :hibiscus:

Just one thing:

If it is just a relationship among adults who happen to are blood relations this is one thing. But the term “incest” is also often used for sexual abuse of children by family members, and this is a completely different matter and of course not acceptable in any way!

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45

Different cultures have different taboos.

Strict rules ok/not ok,
Alcohol ok/not ok,
Talking about sex ok/not ok,
mystical ok/not ok.

with metta

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46

I think its usually a taboo even if the relations between siblings are consensual. Its like necrophilia, to use an extreme example. If one wants to be very utilitarian and detached from human norms, then there is technically nothing wrong with it, it is like having sex using any other inanimate object as a masturbatory aid, but, there is something ineffably “off” about it. This sense of inevitable-seeming “off-ness” is also sometimes extended to sex between men or between women. Thats the nature of taboos. We’ve already seen the association made here between homosexuality and incest. Comparisons between homosexuality and paraphilia, like necrophilia or zoophilia (and lets not forget the old classic, comparisons to pedophilia), are common in more American-style anti-gay rhetoric.

Which taboos are proper and which are improper is the ultimate question, I suppose. I’m certainly not going to defend paraphilia like attractions to corpses, despite the fact that if I had to argue it is wrong, I would have to do so by arguing only from social norms about how to respect the dead, nothing more substantial than that.

47

I misread it as ‘Witch taboo’ :cat2: :grin:

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Something that got a lot of innocent land-owning women murdered in Europe! :speak_no_evil: :hear_no_evil: :see_no_evil:

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Huh- so are there business or political reasons for maintaining taboos?

with metta

50

Some taboos. Some are objectively useful.

For instance, to return to the topic of sexual morality. If we only use “consent” as a metric for determining what is right and wrong, what about the wicked father (or mother, I suppose) who trains their child to be their willing sexual object? That is obviously wrong on many levels, but it was also “consented to”. So clearly “consent” and whether or not the parties involved “think” there is harm or not is not a good metric alone. Sometimes taboos are useful and sometimes they are harmful. I don’t know any one simple answer anyone could give in relation to the question of the ultimate usefulness of taboos.

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51

Maybe taboos are useful if they are concordant with (mundane) right view?

with metta

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52

That works for me.

53

Yes, I completely agree.

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54

Here’s the sutta. It seems to define incest up to second degree relatives, as well as disapproving sex with those at two degrees of separation related to a ‘respected’ person.

“Monks, these two bright qualities guard the world. Which two? Conscience & concern. If these two bright qualities did not guard the world, there would be no recognition of ‘mother’ here, no recognition of ‘mother’s sister,’ ‘uncle’s wife,’ ‘teacher’s wife,’ or ‘wife of those who deserve respect.’ The world would be immersed in promiscuity, like rams with goats, roosters with pigs, or dogs with jackals. But because these two bright qualities guard the world, there is recognition of ‘mother,’ ‘mother’s sister,’ ‘uncle’s wife,’ ‘teacher’s wife,’ & ‘wife of those who deserve respect.’” AN2.9

With metta

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55

First, let us rule out the kinds of sex that are unskilful under all circumstances. I think you would agree that rape, cheating and taking advantage of someone for one’s own carnal pleasure are always bad, period. Paedophelia, cheating on one’s spouse with a prostitute or promising a girl that you’ll get married after having some fun in her Dad’s barn will always result in bad kamma.

That taken out of the way, I’ll try to answer your original question. My personal take on this is that different sexual practices are variably considered appropriate or inappropriate in different cultures at different times and by different people, so their kammic effects will vary according to one’s personal attitude towards the said practices. So, if some particular culture considers homosexuality to be undesirable, inappropriate or even sinful and there is a person within this cultural context who has a negative opinion about homosexuality but still practices homosexual sex, the chances are this person will reap negative kamma. In other words, if you are a gay man and are sincerely convinced you may go to hell for having consensual sex with another handsome chap but still do it, it is perfectly possible you will go to hell. On the other hand, if you don’t really think it is something bad, then it is perfectly possible that nothing bad is going to happen.

In my view, the same thing applies to incest. In the overwhelming majority of cultures incest is considered a very bad thing. The overwhelming majority of people are opposed to even consensual forms of incest, therefore it is likely that in the overwheling majority of cases an incestuous relationship will result in a bad re-birth. However, there were and possibly are cultures where having sex with your cousins, siblings or even parents (e.g. in Zoroastrian cultures) is a perfectly normal thing, it can even be actively encouraged. In these or similar rare cases, it could be a possibility that an incestuous relationship will not result in bad kamma.

To sum all of the above, to my mind, a sincerely believing Arab gay man living in Saudi Arabia can experience negative kammic results because mind precedes all things, you know. At the same time, a secretely atheist Arab gay man living in Saudi Arabia can experience positive kammic results of gay sex.

Last but not least, I think it is important not to confuse our personal aversion to a sexual practice with it being kammically bad in and of itself. I don’t think that gay sex, relationships, marriage (although I don’t like we are still using a religiously connotated term in secular contexts), child adoption are sinful or bad, in the culture I am currently living in they are considered perfectly normal, in the culture where I used to live in most it is frowned upon but most gay people don’t consider it bad themselves. At the same time, I find homosexual sex as appealing to me as three pounds of boiled onions, I really really hate pride parades (and hetereosexual carnivals or fests) and I generally find exaggerated expression of one’s sexuality in public distasteful. The difference is that what I think about various sexual practices, war against the Islamic State, Donald Trump’s policies and mining bitcoin and their true kammic effects are not necessarily overlapping. There is no God, the Universe is ruled by heartless, cold-blooded physical and kammic laws. It doesn’t care.

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