AN7.67 EA39.4 (the parallel omits the full formula but refers to the jhanas)
AN7.69 EA39.2 (the parallel contains the full four jahna formula)
AN8.30 EA42.6 (the parallel replaces the 4 jhana with mahayana interpolation)
EA39.4:
“思惟四增上心之法，亦不脫漏，是謂比丘成就此第五之法，弊魔波旬不得其便，”,
“This is the fifth quality of a bhikṣu’s supernormal knowledge that enables him to concentrate on the four kinds of higher mental states without getting rid of their influence. This is how a bhikṣu accomplishes the fifth quality, which is not accessible to Mārapāpīyān.”
T02n0125_033:0730c03_30
“如彼城郭，多諸薪草，外人不能來觸嬈。”,
“It’s like that castle, which has plenty of firewood and grass, and outsiders can’t come to disturb it.”
T02n0125_033:0730c05_31
AN7.67
And what are the four absorptions—blissful meditations in the present life that belong to the higher mind—that they get when they want, without trouble or difficulty? Katamesaṁ catunnaṁ jhānānaṁ ābhicetasikānaṁ diṭṭhadhammasukhavihārānaṁ nikāmalābhī hoti akicchalābhī akasiralābhī?
Just as a king’s frontier citadel has much hay, wood, and water stored up for the enjoyment, relief, and comfort of those within and to repel those outside, Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, rañño paccantime nagare bahuṁ tiṇakaṭṭhodakaṁ sannicitaṁ hoti abbhantarānaṁ ratiyā aparitassāya phāsuvihārāya bāhirānaṁ paṭighātāya.
in the same way a noble disciple, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. Evamevaṁ kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako vivicceva kāmehi …pe… paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati
This is for their own enjoyment, relief, and comfort, and for alighting upon extinguishment. attano ratiyā aparitassāya phāsuvihārāya okkamanāya nibbānassa.
EA39.2
“比丘當知，若賢聖弟子無貪欲想，除不善法，念持歡喜，遊志一禪”
“Monks"
T02n0125_033:0729c06_13
“「復次，賢聖弟子有覺、有觀息，內有歡喜，專其一心，無覺、無觀、遊心二禪，”
“Furthermore, the noble disciple has initial thought and sustained thought with breathing. With joy within, he concentrates his mind on onepointed concentration; having neither thought nor sustained thought, he enters the second meditative state of absorption in which there is neither thought nor sustained thought:"
T02n0125_033:0729c08_15
“如似彼樹而生羅網。”
“It’s like a net that resembles those trees and gives rise to a silhouettering net.”
T02n0125_033:0729c10_16
“「復次，賢聖弟子念而有護，自覺身有樂，諸賢聖所救，護念具足，遊在三禪，”
“Furthermore, the disciples of the wise and saintly ones are disciplined with mindfulness; they realize for themselves that their bodies are blissful. The wise and saintly ones who are disciplined are endowed with mindfulness and can abide in the third meditative state of absorption."
T02n0125_033:0729c10_17
“如似彼樹而生雹節。
“It’s like when a hailstorm arises like that tree.”
T02n0125_033:0729c12_18
“「復次，賢聖弟子苦樂已盡，先無愁憂，無苦無樂，護念清淨，遊志四禪，”
“Furthermore, the noble disciple who has ended suffering and happiness, first has no sorrow, no pain and no pleasure, is mindful and pure, and wanders in the fourth meditation.”
T02n0125_033:0729c13_19
AN7.69
When a noble disciple, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected, Yasmiṁ, bhikkhave, samaye ariyasāvako vivicceva kāmehi …pe… paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati, they’re like the Shady Orchid Tree when its foliage starts to regrow. jālakajāto, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako tasmiṁ samaye hoti devānaṁva tāvatiṁsānaṁ pāricchattako koviḷāro.
When, as the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, a noble disciple enters and remains in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and confidence, and unified mind, without placing the mind and keeping it connected, Yasmiṁ, bhikkhave, samaye ariyasāvako vitakkavicārānaṁ vūpasamā …pe… dutiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati, they’re like the Shady Orchid Tree when it’s ready to grow flowers and leaves separately. khārakajāto, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako tasmiṁ samaye hoti devānaṁva tāvatiṁsānaṁ pāricchattako koviḷāro.
When, with the fading away of rapture, a noble disciple enters and remains in the third absorption, where they meditate with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss’, Yasmiṁ, bhikkhave, samaye ariyasāvako pītiyā ca virāgā …pe… tatiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati, they’re like the Shady Orchid Tree when its buds start to form. kuṭumalakajāto, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako tasmiṁ samaye hoti devānaṁva tāvatiṁsānaṁ pāricchattako koviḷāro.
When, giving up pleasure and pain, and ending former happiness and sadness, a noble disciple enters and remains in the fourth absorption, without pleasure or pain, with pure equanimity and mindfulness, Yasmiṁ, bhikkhave, samaye ariyasāvako sukhassa ca pahānā dukkhassa ca pahānā …pe… catutthaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati, they’re like the Shady Orchid Tree when its buds burst. korakajāto, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako tasmiṁ samaye hoti devānaṁva tāvatiṁsānaṁ pāricchattako koviḷāro.
Ceisiwr
In the Visuddhimagga, when discussing dependent origination, Ācariya Buddhaghosa defines nāma in the same way as it is in the suttas.
Yes, when Buddhaghosa discusses dependent origination, which may be because viññāṇa conditions nāmarūpa. On the other hand, he groups the arūpakhandhas together as nāma, as seen below.
Ross Reat in The Origins of Indian Psychology (1990: 303-4) says:
“Even Buddhaghosa, who is normally careful to avoid this oversimplification of nāma-rūpa, does at one point in the Visuddhimagga suggest that nāma-rūpa is a twofold designation of the five aggregates (14.11).”
CHAPTER XIV THE AGGREGATES
(Khandha-niddesa)
[A. UNDERSTANDING]
(iv) HOW MANY KINDS OF UNDERSTANDING ARE THERE?
Firstly, as having the characteristic of penetrating the individual essences of states, it is of one kind.
As mundane and supramundane it is of two kinds.
Likewise as subject to cankers and free from cankers, and so on,
As the defining of mentality and of materiality,
4. In the third dyad, when a man wants to begin insight, his understanding of the defining of the four immaterial aggregates (arūpakhandha) is understanding as defining of mentality, [439] and his understanding of the defining of the material aggregate is understanding as defining of materiality. So it is of two kinds as the defining of mentality and of materiality.
Sue Hamilton, in Identity and Experience: The Constitution of the Human Being According to Early Buddhism (page 124) says:
“In the chapter in the Visuddhimagga entitled ‘Description of the Purification of View’ (Ditthi-visuddhi-niddesa), Buddhaghosa discusses definitions of nāmarūpa at some length. Quoting several canonical passages which illustrate the selflessness of the human being in terms of the khandhas, the body, and dukkha, he goes on to state that all such passages are in fact saying that the human being is only nāmarūpa, and that no self is found therein because in the ultimate sense there is only nāmarūpa. This clearly equates nāmarūpa with the five khandhas as representing the individual as a whole, analysed according to body and mind.”
CHAPTER XVIII
PURIFICATION OF VIEW
(Ditthi-visuddhi-niddesa)
[NO BEING APART FROM MENTALITY-MATERIALITY]
He defines the four immaterial aggregates (arūpakhandha) that have thus become evident through contact, etc., as “mentality.” (nāma)
“This is mere mentality-materiality, there is no being, no person”.
Namarupamattam ev’ idam na satto, na puggalo atthi .
So in many hundred suttas it is only mentality-materiality that is illustrated, not a being, not a person.
Evam anekasatehi suttantehi namarupam eva dipitam, na satto, na puggalo.
DN1 DA21 (both contain the jhana sequence) DN2 DA27 (the parallel elides the jhanas but has the sekkha passage) DN3 DA20 (both contain the jhana sequence) DN4 DA22 (parallel employs the elison " attains the rapture of the four dhyānas in the present life) DN5 DA23 (parallel contains the sekkha passage, elides the jhana part) DN8 DA25 (parallel refers to the four jhanas) DN9 DA28 (parallel contains the full sequence) DN11 DA24 (contains the sekkha with elison) DN12 DA29 (omits the sequence) DN16 DA2 (contains the full sequnce and adds jhana to the wings) DN26 DA6 (contains the full sequence) DN29 DA17 (contains the full sequence and adds jhana to the wings) DN33 DA9 DA10 (sariputta) DN34 DA10 DA11 (sariputta)
even if we decide that we should not include the suttas where the sekkha patipada is elided to omit explicit mention of the jhanas, although still obviously referring to them by citing the passage for recitation occurring earlier in the Agama, we would still have
SN6.15 SA1197 (omits jhana) SN16.9 SA1142 (both contain the jhana sequence) SN16.10 SA1143 (Mahākāśyapa) SN16.11 SA1144 (Mahākāśyapa) SN36.11 SA473 (both contain jhana) SN36.17 SA474 (both contain jhana) SN36.19 SA485 (both contain the jhana sequence) SN36.31 SA483 (both contain the jhana sequence) SN41.8 SA574 (Citta, tho both parallels mention jhana) SN41.9 SA573 (Citta) SN45.8 SA784 (omits jhana, is actually very interesting) SN48.10 SA658 (parallel contains 謂四禪。, the four jhanas) SN54.8 SA814 (both contain jhana)
SA784:
“何等為正念？”
“What’s right mindfulness?”
T02n0099_028:0203a15_19
“謂念隨順，念不妄、不虛。”
“It’s mindfulness of following, and mindfulness that’s not false or pointless.”
T02n0099_028:0203a15_20
“何等為正定？”
“What’s right concentration?”
T02n0099_028:0203a15_21
“謂住心不亂、堅固、攝持、寂止、三昧、一心。」”
"It’s abiding in mind that’s unconfused, resolute, collected, tranquil, concentrated, and single-minded."
T02n0099_028:0203a16_22
I’ll be away from the forum, but you might want to check out the lack of the 12 nidānas outside SN 12/SA 3. Much like the aggregates, the 12 links basically have close to no strong basis outside the SN/SA. There has already been some surveying with Chinese parallels in the thread here.
I, like you (I think), get the feeling that the SN/SA is the Sangha’s more technical, oral manual for grouping advanced dhamma category teachings together and making these philosophical systems consistent and more inclusive of the thought-world expressed elsewhere in less concise formats. It’s very likely some of this systematization occurred later on, whether in the Buddha’s teaching career or slightly after. It would have to be very early on though. I do think there is also a clear intentional grouping of types of content though as well at play, and a gathering of discourses into one collection to keep them together.
Yes I think your right, I mean, including the AN/EA common core sets a very high bar, but even sans that i am comming round to thinking that the 12 links might fall under the knife if we insist on “spread”.
I am coming to the idea that the samyutta was the original abhidhamma, and the original samyutta was the mahavagga, so probably all 3 of nidana, aggregates, and sense bases are somewhat later technicalities.
So maybe continuing here rather than the other threads,
Constitutes a substantial “common core” of the agama/nikaya collection.
On the idea that the samyutta was the original abhidhamma, and the original samyutta was the mahavagga (and the 37 wings was the original matika refering to the mahavagga)
All of nidana, aggregates, and sense bases and satipathannas, anapana, impurities, brahmaviharas, etc are somewhat later technicalities.
Jhana therefore constitutes the foundational practice of the collection being fully a 3rd of the D, a substantial part of the (early numerically in pali) M, with legitimate representation, often seeming to take the previous suttas for granted, in S and EA.
So the perhaps most parsimonious reading would be that mahavagga, or proto S is qouted in D and M, as the wings, and D is qouted in S, examples given (somewhere here ).
So the common core of 4 collections can perhaps be made into 2, the “sekkha jhana” chapter, (D, M) and the SN45 to SN51 “eightfold path fourfold sati” mahavagga.
AE remains as the third, to me quite unexplored continent.
Anyway,
SN48.10 is therefore a critical text, being in both the sekkha jhana chapter and the fourfold sati chapter so I will give it in full here:
btw i much prefer The process from belief , action , awareness, absorption, to knowledge.
jhana as absorbtion reminds me of what @Brahmali was saying in the other thread, or someone was, about the chinese translation of asava for as “leak”, but Iike it here because it charts the idea well in this sequence, that of merely (trying to believe or) believing, through action/experimentation to “see” if it’s true, becoming aware that it is true, and absorbing that fact, then having knowledge of it.
this is an excellent summary of the pericope as at DN2 in much longer form, and again perhaps the most parsimonious conclusion is that the larger stories as at DN2 and the shorter ones as at SN48.10 are both firmly rooted in the same fundamental project and set of concerns as the rest the broader early collecitons.
“Mendicants, there are these five faculties.
“Pañcimāni, bhikkhave, indriyāni.
What five?
Katamāni pañca?
The faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, immersion, and wisdom.
Saddhindriyaṁ …pe… paññindriyaṁ.
And what is the faculty of faith?
Katamañca, bhikkhave, saddhindriyaṁ?
It’s when a noble disciple has faith in the Realized One’s awakening:
Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako saddho hoti, saddahati tathāgatassa bodhiṁ:
‘That Blessed One is perfected, a fully awakened Buddha, accomplished in knowledge and conduct, holy, knower of the world, supreme guide for those who wish to train, teacher of gods and humans, awakened, blessed.’
‘itipi so bhagavā arahaṁ sammāsambuddho vijjācaraṇasampanno sugato lokavidū anuttaro purisadammasārathi satthā devamanussānaṁ buddho bhagavā’ti—
This is called the faculty of faith.
idaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, saddhindriyaṁ.
And what is the faculty of energy?
Katamañca, bhikkhave, vīriyindriyaṁ?
It’s when a noble disciple lives with energy roused up for giving up unskillful qualities and embracing skillful qualities. They’re strong, staunchly vigorous, not slacking off when it comes to developing skillful qualities.
Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako āraddhavīriyo viharati akusalānaṁ dhammānaṁ pahānāya, kusalānaṁ dhammānaṁ upasampadāya, thāmavā daḷhaparakkamo anikkhittadhuro kusalesu dhammesu.
They generate enthusiasm, try, make an effort, exert the mind, and strive so that bad, unskillful qualities don’t arise.
So anuppannānaṁ pāpakānaṁ akusalānaṁ dhammānaṁ anuppādāya chandaṁ janeti vāyamati vīriyaṁ ārabhati cittaṁ paggaṇhāti padahati;
They generate enthusiasm, try, make an effort, exert the mind, and strive so that bad, unskillful qualities that have arisen are given up.
uppannānaṁ pāpakānaṁ akusalānaṁ dhammānaṁ pahānāya chandaṁ janeti vāyamati vīriyaṁ ārabhati cittaṁ paggaṇhāti padahati;
They generate enthusiasm, try, make an effort, exert the mind, and strive so that skillful qualities arise.
anuppannānaṁ kusalānaṁ dhammānaṁ uppādāya chandaṁ janeti vāyamati vīriyaṁ ārabhati cittaṁ paggaṇhāti padahati;
They generate enthusiasm, try, make an effort, exert the mind, and strive so that skillful qualities that have arisen remain, are not lost, but increase, mature, and are completed by development.
uppannānaṁ kusalānaṁ dhammānaṁ ṭhitiyā asammosāya bhiyyobhāvāya vepullāya bhāvanāya pāripūriyā chandaṁ janeti vāyamati vīriyaṁ ārabhati cittaṁ paggaṇhāti padahati—
This is called the faculty of energy.
idaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, vīriyindriyaṁ.
And what is the faculty of mindfulness?
Katamañca, bhikkhave, satindriyaṁ?
It’s when a noble disciple is mindful. They have utmost mindfulness and alertness, and can remember and recall what was said and done long ago.
Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako satimā hoti paramena satinepakkena samannāgato, cirakatampi cirabhāsitampi saritā anussaritā.
They meditate observing an aspect of the body—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of covetousness and bitterness for the world.
So kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṁ;
They meditate observing an aspect of feelings …
vedanāsu …pe…
mind …
citte …pe…
principles—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of covetousness and bitterness for the world.
dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṁ—
This is called the faculty of mindfulness.
idaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, satindriyaṁ.
And what is the faculty of immersion?
Katamañca, bhikkhave, samādhindriyaṁ?
It’s when a noble disciple, relying on letting go, gains immersion, gains unification of mind.
Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako vossaggārammaṇaṁ karitvā labhati samādhiṁ, labhati cittassa ekaggataṁ.
Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, they enter and remain in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.
So vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.
As the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, they enter and remain in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and mind at one, without placing the mind and keeping it connected.
Vitakkavicārānaṁ vūpasamā ajjhattaṁ sampasādanaṁ cetaso ekodibhāvaṁ avitakkaṁ avicāraṁ samādhijaṁ pītisukhaṁ dutiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.
And with the fading away of rapture, they enter and remain in the third absorption, where they meditate with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.’
Pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati sato ca sampajāno sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṁvedeti yaṁ taṁ ariyā ācikkhanti ‘upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī’ti tatiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.
Giving up pleasure and pain, and ending former happiness and sadness, they enter and remain in the fourth absorption, without pleasure or pain, with pure equanimity and mindfulness.
Sukhassa ca pahānā dukkhassa ca pahānā pubbeva somanassadomanassānaṁ atthaṅgamā adukkhamasukhaṁ upekkhāsatipārisuddhiṁ catutthaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati—
This is called the faculty of immersion.
idaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, samādhindriyaṁ.
And what is the faculty of wisdom?
Katamañca, bhikkhave, paññindriyaṁ?
It’s when a noble disciple is wise. They have the wisdom of arising and passing away which is noble, penetrative, and leads to the complete ending of suffering.
Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako paññavā hoti udayatthagāminiyā paññāya samannāgato ariyāya nibbedhikāya, sammā dukkhakkhayagāminiyā.
They truly understand: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’.
So ‘idaṁ dukkhan’ti yathābhūtaṁ pajānāti, ‘ayaṁ dukkhasamudayo’ti yathābhūtaṁ pajānāti, ‘ayaṁ dukkhanirodho’ti yathābhūtaṁ pajānāti, ‘ayaṁ dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadā’ti yathābhūtaṁ pajānāti—
This is called the faculty of wisdom.
idaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, paññindriyaṁ.
These are the five faculties.”
Imāni kho, bhikkhave, pañcindriyānī”ti.
I would prefer something like, but of course do not know if there is any support for such renderings,
And what is the faculty of conviction? Katamañca, bhikkhave, saddhindriyaṁ?
It’s when a noble disciple has conviction in the awakening of one thus gone out; Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako saddho hoti, saddahati tathāgatassa bodhiṁ:
‘that blessed one is perfected, a fully awakened buddha, accomplished in knowledge and conduct, holy, knower of the world, supreme guide for those who wish to train, teacher of gods and humans, awakened, blessed.’
This is called the faculty of conviction. idaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, saddhindriyaṁ.
Anyway,
The interesting thing about this critical text is that it is fundamentally a sekkha jhana text with the insertion of sati for hindrances, sati is even very simply defined first as being able to remember things correctly, then the wisdom part replaces recollection of past lives and destruction of asavas with the four truths pericope, probably a pericope that therefore gets, along with the eightfold path, anapana, impurities, brahmaviharas, nidanas, aggregates, sense bases, thrown under the same bus as
elaborations on the sati (hinderences) jhana practice that underlies the entire jhana DM and sati S.
The question then becomes not which is “earliest” of D, M and S, but rather, how do texts in the collection interrelate as regards to the “(believing) (practicing) sati (hinderences) jhana (recollection, knowing)” presentation of Buddhism that forms the common core of the bulk of the texts shared in common between the pali and the chinese about the buddhas teaching.
and just whie I am here wouldn’t it be great @sujato if we could have the SA etc with line by line of @cdpatton > Analayo, > Machine Translation so the other half of my citations can auto highlight like the pali?
and this of DN2 from the same source are interesting in my opinion, but I have a lot of trouble cuting and pasting the text and cannot work out how to make specific graphs of the “taffy” style, or even find the ones that I used to admire there. It also breaks whatever convention allows the autopreview box to work on discourse
I think this thread would ultimately be more aptly named “is anatta early or late EBT?” because if the khandhas etc fall then certainly anatta does, and Thanisaaro is onto something
The “try to believe, experiment, remember, absorb, then know” Buddhism seems to me certainly earlier than 4NT, anatta, khanda, nidana, anapana, etc…
All this for reasons I state elsewhere is really silent as to what the buddha actually taught, both the sekkha and the sati schools chould be fullynrooted in instruction from the buddhas lifetime, its just that the texts evolve in ways that cannot be explained by appeals to the lifetime of the buddha and must rather be explained by appeals to textual evolution.
So I have finally gotten round to finishing my examination of the occurances of jhana in the MA parallels to MN:
MN77 MA207 lacks the jhanas MN78 MA179 mentions the jhanas MN79 MA208 has the full jhana formula MN85 MA204 mentions the jhana MN99 MA152 MA170 omit jhana MN101 MA19 mentions the jhana MN107 MA144 mentions jhana MN108 MA145 mentions jhana MN112 MA187 mentions jhana MN113 MA85 discusses all 4 jhanas MN119 MA81 MA98 mentions jhana MN122 MA191 lacks the jhanas MN138 MA164 gives the full jhana formula MN139 MA169 mentions jhana MN141 MA31 MA98 mentions jhana
(just a quick note on methodology I searched for 禪 in the agama parallel and then used chatgpt to translate the paragraph where the 禪 occured to confirm the context.)
Over 40 suttas taught by the buddha, with a chinese parallel, and that parallel occurring in the same collection.
compare:
Outside of SN, the phrases cattāro satipaṭṭhānā or kāye kāyānupassī viharati are spoken by the Buddha, in a sutta with a parallel in the same collection in the Agamas, in a context that is not simply a list of doctrinal topics, at
MN22 MA200 Probably originates in Bu Pc 68 MN75 MA153 The Agama parallel omits at least some occurrences of the aggregates MN112 MA187 MN122 MA191 focuses on the late attainment suññataṃ MN132 MA167 Original at [MN134]
Are the only places outside SN/SA that the aggregates occur in parallel
So the aggregates are absent form the shared DN/DA and from the shared AN/EA, while jhana is definitively present in all the books.
I will try and follow up a bit with some other loose ends, and perhaps present my findings in a more polished and structured format in a new essay post at some stage, but the moral of the story is that if one sets a standard that to be a definitively early teaching, then that teaching should be attributed to the buddha and occur in all 4 principle collections in parallels occurring in both languages in similar collections, then jhana passes the test with flying colors and the aggregates do not.
EDIT/POSTSCRIPT:
Have finally gotten a copy of TILMANN VETTER’s The ‘Khandha Passages’ in the Vinayapitaka and the four main Nikayas (caps form cut and paste) and have had the rather ambivilent experience of finding that one’s toil and it’s result has already been done, which is both deflating and reassuring.
Vetter notes;
“When one also takes note of parallels in Sanskrit fragments
and Chinese translations, one cannot help to assume that the
reciters of AN and DN originally ignored the teaching of the five
items”
p15
Something that I have laboriously confirmed with my own research, reported above.
He also notes;
This has already been suggested by C. A. F. Rhys Davids 1937, 408 ff. She
found reference to the five items only in the last two suttantas of DN and in the
‘bo-tree episode’ (II 35), which for her was (and is for me) of a patent supplementary nature. As to the AN, which may indeed be “the earliest attemptto collect
and classify the growing thesaurus of Sayings” (which does not exclude later
accretions), she observed that it omits the theme from its list of ‘Fives’. That four
items (without vififidna) appear in the list of ‘Fours’ (see A. 5) was for her (and is
for me, see § 5 and 133), an argument that the teaching of the four viffidnatthitis
preceded that of the contemplation of the five items.
ibid
And I feel compelled to add that G C Pande in his 1957 Studies in the origins of Buddhism makes the same assesment.
I feel compelled to remark that it is a sort of sad feeling one gets when one realizes that many of the people they are talking to know full well many of the things that one wishes to know, but refrain from offering assistance, presumably out of some conscious or otherwise animus towards ones “team”.
I know that people here generally do not seek to prosecute the case i seek to prosecute, but I have always taken it to be the case that i can function as a “sparring partner” and thus be of service to those who seek to preach not to the choir.
It genuinely saddens me to think that people who could do me a simple courtesy would refrain from doing so and merely stand by and watch as i dig.
anyway, i am being a bit silly, but there you are.
my other thought is perhaps a little more serious, and it is that over the last couple of years I have noticed a rather alarming change in the tone of the board, which it seems to me has become more parochial seemingly more a forum for religious Buddhists of a broadly Theravadin stripe to talk about their practice and practice their rhetoric.
I very much enjoy the tussle of ideas with the likes of @Sunyo but I have to say I am missing some of the people who where active here a year or so ago who had perspectives other than the orthodox ones.
I suppose that these things ebb and flow, and I probably need to just be patient, but I do wonder if there is anything that can be done to encourage a greater diversity in the future.
lastly, to circle back around and maybe combine elements of the last two points, it seems to me that there is plenty of fairly detailed and serious scholarship out there, like Vetter’s, that really should be more prominent and integral to the discussions going on here. If this board, and the site it supports, really wants to be a place of scholarship and research and not just the online page of a particular religious community, then there should be more done to encourage and foreground ALL the scholarship that is relevant to the early buddhist texts, not just that of those who more or less defend a version of the orthodoxy of the in group.
My conclusion is now that they are later than the jhanas, later than the undeclared points, later than the arising, ceasing, gratification, danger and escape pericope, but that they are earlier than the sectarian period and therfore “pre-sectarian”.
This for me makes them “ebt”, but not part of the “earliest” ebt.
But, as you already knew, according to YinShun’s findings on the anga structure of early Buddhist texts, your concluded views are not regarded as seeing both the structure and content regarding the formation of EBTs.
).