Bhante Sujato Pali Course 2023: Warder lesson 11

Thread for discussing chapter 11 of Warder for the class on October 10th.

Meeting ID: 869 8997 6290
Passcode: 2023


Don’t forget, classmates, that Bhante set up the template above so that when we’ve made the entry in Sydney time (AESDT), you see it in your own local time for that date, wherever in the world you are.

This feature is particularly useful during the spring and autumn periods as countries randomly adjust their time settings.


Thanks for making the new thread Gillian!

1 Like

Sorry I missed class last week Bhante. I’m working to catch up.

No worries. We did have some fun with third languages though!

1 Like

Question 1:
I followed the road
Aj. Brahmali: ahaṃ maggaṃ agamāsiṃ (or paṭipajjiṃ).
My Answer: Ahaṁ maggaṁ paṭipanno

Is it possible to use the past participle instead of the aorist?

Question 2:
My life (was) given by him (he spared my life), his life (was) given by me (I spared his life).
Aj. Bramali: tena ca me jīvitaṃ dinnaṃ, mayā ca tassa jīvitaṃ dinnaṃ.
My Answer: Mama jīvitaṁ tena adāsi, tassa jīvitaṁ mayā adāsiṁ

In this case should I have used the past participle because it has more of a passive sense?

Also… Bhante @sujato I will miss lessons 12 & 13 as I will be on retreat. Is it OK for me to pop any questions I have into this thread (I’m doing the hw before my retreat)?

I would think that using the past participle would involve more reorganisation, thus:

Mayā maggo paṭipanno, or Maggo mayā patipanno.

I wonder what our teachers think? :thinking:

I can volunteer to move them to the new threads for you.


I have just finished reviewing what Warder has taught us about verbs so far. I made a summary table which I attach. If it makes sense to a few of you and seems useful that would be great. It’s not intended to be exhaustive, but if anyone spots errors and lets me know, that would be really splendid.

Summary of verb forms Warder 1-10.pdf (184.8 KB)
Amended after discussion with Ven Khemarato.


Thanks for that… With the future conjugations… you have an errant s in the third person plural. But also your (o/e) is confusing me. -ssonti? I don’t think I’ve ever seen that…?

1 Like

Errant s removed from the original document: thanks.
Frankly, my (o/e) is a hangover from an early edition of this doc based on a different textbook (the only line I didn’t rewrite). It looked kosha to me, but I was thinking by analogy with karoti - karonti and I’ve now checked :frowning: the DPD:

I’d better review the whole future line tomorrow morning. :thinking:


Yeah. I guess I overspoke when I called -ss- an “infix” in class: -[ia]ssa is a (root? stem? trunk?) sufix that then gets conjugated like a normal -a verb :grin:

* - though thinking of -ss- and -yy- as infixes is still helpful for me to recognize the future and optative (ch 14) tenses in context.

1 Like

First exercise, Lesson 11:
na kho ahaṃ āvuso addasaṃ
Indeed, friend, I did not see.

Isn’t a demonstrative pronoun called for here?
…I did not see [them].

Because the context is the 500 carts that Āḷāra Kālāma was asked about seeing.

Why would pāli not use a pronoun here?


A good question, since in English “to see” is often a transitive verb and takes a direct object. (But not always - “I didn’t actually see”)

Yes, clearly what is seen are the carts, and in translating into English we can use an object, ‘no, friend, I did not see them.

It is possible to translate as an intransitive verb:

api, bhante, pañcamattāni sakaṭasatāni atikkantāni addasā’ti?
na kho ahaṃ āvuso addasaṃ
Friend, in fact I didn’t see.

Interestingly, in the next exchange the verb ‘to hear’ does take an object, saddam.


It seems to me that they are aptly described as infixes, and the regular inflection endings as suffixes.

I studied the future forms given by the DPD for some of the verbs Warder has given us and found the following regularities:

First conjugation
pucchati - pucchissati
bhavati - bhavissati
bhāsati - bhāsissati
harati - harissati

Sixth conjugation
karoti - karissati
tanoti - tunissati
pappoti - papissati

Seventh conjugation
katheti kathessati
chaḍḍeti. chaḍḍessati
deseti - desessati
manteti mantessati

So it seems my “(o/e)” must have referred to the vowel before the “ss”, and that the “o” likely belongs in a declension we’ve not yet met. Thank you for applying close scrutiny to my table. :pray:

PS: I really appreciate some of Warder’s analyses. ATM the verb conjugations don’t look anything like the labyrinth they once did.


Does dakkhiṇa only mean “right” in the sense of the direction or does it also mean “right” as in “correct”?

And another question relating to the word, but not to lesson 11: In the Lokanta Vihara chanting book we have dakkhiṇeyyo, which is translated as “worthy of a religious donation”. (It occurs as a qualifier of sāvakasaṅgho, which is translated as “the Saṅgha of the Buddha’s disciples”) Is it correct that the literal translation of dakkhiṇeyyo would be “worthy of right (hand)”? Is the idea here that the Saṅgha of the Buddha’s disciples is worthy to receive from the disciples right hand or what does it mean?

1 Like

The word in this context stems from the Brahamical tradition: Offerings dedicated to the gods - #8 by sujato


Question re. Translate into Pali
The king saw the boy. &
We saw the fortunate one.

Kelly and Brahmali both use addasā and addasāma, but I translated these
rajā kumāraṃ adakkhi &
mayaṃ bhagavantaṃ adakkāma
Is that OK?

(When I looked these verbs up I found them to be variants of the same verb from √dis. … It’s like swimming through treacle or walking through quicksand, not sure which!)

@johnk note it should reference D II 130 in your exercise key

Aorist verbs based on the base ‘dakkh’ seem very rare, ‘adakkāma’ doesn’t seem to exist in the Canon at all.

The PTS dictionary gives addakkhi and 1st sg. addakkhiŋ.

The forms offered in the Key are much more common, particularly ‘addasā’.

1 Like


I think it seems there are differences in the tables for aorist of root dis and root gam in Warder comparing with the DPD.