Bhante Sujato Pali Course 2023: Warder lesson 11

[stephen]

Hi,
One can find most, if not all of the attested forms here, with citations.

The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary

[Clarity]

@acala

Is it possible to use the past participle instead of the aorist?

I think maybe you need the “asmi” for the main verb of the sentence as: Ahaṁ maggaṁ paṭipanno asmi

@acala

In this case should I have used the past participle because it has more of a passive sense?

I think dinnaṁ is the past participle nt nom sg of dinna so it fits the passive sense.

Also, adāsi is aorist 3rd sg of adāsi so maybe you can change it into present passive as dīyati then to aorist passive as dīyāmi or dīyami (not sure which is correct form though)

[BethL]

I don’t see this at all in D.1.148 (that part of the sutta):
My life was given (spared) by him, his life was given (spared) by me

Am I missing something?

[Clarity]

It is found in the Vinaya instead:
Iminā ca me jīvitaṁ dinnaṁ, mayā ca imassa jīvitaṁ dinnan’ti.

[sujato]

@acala

Ahaṁ maggaṁ paṭipanno

@Gillian

Mayā maggo paṭipanno

Right, it would take the passive sense.

@acala

Is it OK for me to pop any questions I have into this thread (I’m doing the hw before my retreat)?

Sure!

@Gillian

I can volunteer to move them to the new threads for you.

Thanks.

@acala

In this case should I have used the past participle because it has more of a passive sense?

Exactly, yes.

@BethL

Why would pāli not use a pronoun here?

I guess it’s just not idiomatic? I don’t see any reason to not use the pronoun.

Hmm. It strikes me as somewhat coincidental that in one of the very few statments attributed to Alara’s counterpart Udaka we find exactly the same ambiguity around the use of “see” as a transitive verb.

  "dn29:16.8": "Udako sudaṁ, cunda, rāmaputto evaṁ vācaṁ bhāsati: ",
  "dn29:16.9": "‘passaṁ na passatī’ti. ",
  "dn29:16.10": "Kiñca passaṁ na passatīti? ",
  "dn29:16.11": "Khurassa sādhunisitassa talamassa passati, dhārañca khvassa na passati. ",

  "dn29:16.8": "Uddaka, son of Rāma, used to say: ",
  "dn29:16.9": "‘Seeing, one does not see.’ ",
  "dn29:16.10": "But seeing what does one not see? ",
  "dn29:16.11": "You can see the blade of a well-sharpened razor, but not the edge. ",

This passage is directly inspired by Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad 1.4.7, which has the same intransitive usage.

Maybe this is irrelevant, or maybe he was echoing this idiom?

@anon63415341

Does dakkhiṇa only mean “right” in the sense of the direction or does it also mean “right” as in “correct”?

It means “right” as in direction, or else “south” (which is to the right when facing the rising sun). But it also takes on a connotation of “rightness”, as opposed to the left hand (vāma) which is wrong.

dakkhiṇā in the sense of “donation” and hence “honor” is also conflated with this sense. You perform padakkhina by circumnambulating with your right side facing the object of honor. The dictionary says they originally had separate roots, but in any case the senses are certainly mixed in Pali.

So dakkhiṇeyyo means literally “worthy of religious donation”, the dakkhiṇā being a formal payment expected by brahmins for their services. Obviously Buddhists don’t require payment, but the Buddha co-opted the language. It would also be felt that the offering should be given with the right hand. And it then extends as above to the circumnambulation with the right side facing.

A complex idea!

@Gillian

rajā kumāraṃ adakkhi &
mayaṃ bhagavantaṃ adakkāma
Is that OK?

adakkhi is correct, but adakkāma (which presumably would be adakkhāma) doesn’t seem to exist. The canon instead has addassatha for second plural.

But yeah these are rare forms.

@Clarity

there are differences in the tables for aorist of root dis and root gam

You often find such minor variants in rarely used verb forms. The exact form is sometimes not settled in the manuscript tradition, as they might be attested only once or twice or not at all. So dictionaries and grammars like to list all the possible forms. But just focus on the main forms and look the other ones up when you come across them.

[Dheerayupa]

I’ve just finished reading!!!
Lesson 11 - Notes.pdf (326.2 KB)

[Rev.Sanghamitta]

You’re right, thanks for reminder, dear Gillian.

[Rev.Sanghamitta]

@Gillian

Mayā maggo paṭipanno, or Maggo mayā patipanno.

I agree

[Gillian]

@stephen

The PTS dictionary gives addakkhi and 1st sg. addakkhiŋ.

The forms offered in the Key are much more common, particularly ‘addasā’.

Thanks Stephen. So glad u r hanging around.

[Dheerayupa]

Questions Part 1

pāmujjaṃ bhavissati, sukho ca vih ā ro

Aj Brahmali = There will be joy and a happy way of life.

Question: I wonder whether my rendering: ‘There will be a joyous and happy way of life’ is acceptable as it would be something I would say?

If I wanted to mean what Ajahn Brahmali says, I’d say: There is a happy way of life and that will be a great joy. Is this what the sentence mean?

sassato loko

Aj Brahmali = The world is eternal.

Another ‘equational sentence’, i.e. one thing ‘is’ something else. Note that the words ‘equated’ are in the nominative case.

Me = Eternal world

Question: Can this sentence be just a noun phrase ‘eternal world’, not a sentence?

kusalan ti pi na bhavissati, kuto pana kusalassa kārako

Aj Brahmali = There will not even be the concept ‘good’, let alone a doer of good.

Question: I got it the other way round… My interpretation: There will not only be the wholesome, but also the wholesome doer.

Please enlighten me if I want to say what I said, what would the Pali be?

ahaṃ kho maggaṃ agamāsiṃ

Ajahn Brahmali = I travelled the road.

Question: Is this ok? ‘I went on that path.’

kaly* ā na ṃ vuccati br ā hma ṇ *a

Ajahn Brahmali = It is beautifully said, brahmin.

Question: Another total failure. My version: The good (people) is/are called (a) saint(s)/paragon(s).

Is there a remote possibility that my rendering could, in a parallel universe, be right?

[Khemarato.bhikkhu]

@Dheerayupa

Can this sentence be just a noun phrase

I think so. But for these exercises we should treat each as a complete sentence (as possible).

@Dheerayupa

let alone…but also

the grammar for this was introduced in the lesson

@Dheerayupa

called (a) saint(s)/paragon(s).

brāhmaṇa can only be vocative. For this construction, the nominative (or accusative?) would be used. So: in a parallel universe where “brāhmaṇa” is a nominative meaning “a paragon”, then sure!

[Dheerayupa]

Thank you. My mistakes are so very obvious!

Embarrassing brain, indeed!

[johnk]

@BethL

@johnk note it should reference D II 130 in your exercise key

Thanks, @bethl, that is correct. Good catch by you of a typo in my answer key - and I’m sure it’s not the only one.

[johnk]

Bhante, I’m afraid I won’t be able to join the class this evening (10 Oct). My apologies.
See you all next week.

[Dheerayupa]

Is this sentence grammatically correct?

so idha tato cuto idhūpapanno

If so, what would be the translation?

[sujato]

@Dheerayupa

pāmujjaṃ bhavissati, sukho ca vih ā ro

Aj Brahmali = There will be joy and a happy way of life.

Question: I wonder whether my rendering: ‘There will be a joyous and happy way of life’ is acceptable as it would be something I would say?

If I wanted to mean what Ajahn Brahmali says, I’d say: There is a happy way of life and that will be a great joy. Is this what the sentence mean?

That’s fine, although in such contexts vihāra often means “meditation” rather than “way of life”. But that’s contextual.

@Dheerayupa

Can this sentence be just a noun phrase ‘eternal world’

It could be, yes.

@Dheerayupa

kusalan ti pi na bhavissati, kuto pana kusalassa kārako

Aj Brahmali = There will not even be the concept ‘good’, let alone a doer of good.

Question: I got it the other way round… My interpretation: There will not only be the wholesome, but also the wholesome doer.

Please enlighten me if I want to say what I said, what would the Pali be?

Take out the na?

kusalan ti pi bhavissati, kuto pana kusalassa kārako

@Dheerayupa

Ajahn Brahmali = I travelled the road.

Question: Is this ok? ‘I went on that path.’

sure.

@Dheerayupa

kaly* ā na ṃ vuccati br ā hma ṇ *a

spelling!

brāhmaṇa is vocative, so no.

vuccati is passive, so it takes the nominative, and when defining a term, the defined term is quoted with -ti.

kalyāṇo brāhmaṇo’ti vuccati
a good person is called “brahmin”

@johnk

I won’t be able to join the class this evening (10 Oct).

No worries, see you next week.

@Dheerayupa

Is this sentence grammatically correct?

so idha tato cuto idhūpapanno

It is, but it probably wouldn’t occur, I’m not sure what the repeated idha is trying to do. But idha often functions simply to contextualize the sentence so maybe:

In this case, passing away from there, he arose here.

@Dheerayupa

Thank you. My mistakes are so very obvious!

Embarrassing brain, indeed!

mā h’evaṁ bhoti dhīrayūpe avaca! Nanu bhoti amhākaṁ bhagavatā anekapariyāyena dhammo pakāsito: paññā sutavinicchinī

[Gillian]

Who made the recording of Lesson 11 please?

Is the time for next week the same?

Thanks.

[Karuna_Hong]

It’s only this week that I’ve needed to re-watch the recording, so I’m out of the loop on how folks have been downloading them. Could I ask your help to figure out how? Our last class is the only one I’m in dire need of…but I’d love the others, if someone’s been keeping them somewhere?

[Dheerayupa]

Dear fellow classmates,

Could we share the list of the video recordings of the lessons that we have?

I do have the one on 27 Sep 2023 (Lesson 9), anyone who wants it please message me and I’d share with you the link.

I don’t think we should share the link(s) here as Bhante would like to keep the recordings private among the classmates.