Mā kukkuccāyi. Na socāmi. 
(kīḷāmi 
)
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Anumodāmi, na patikkosāmi.
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So, from the Pāḷi Exercises in Warder, it seems that the second person plural pronoun is not used as a polite second person singular (as, e.g., French). I guess the third person is sometimes used for this instead?
Right. Pali does not have a formal 2nd person pronoun.
Addressing someone in the 3rd person is often a way to do that.
Like if I said to you, “might Venerable Khemarato care to answer this question…”
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Dear Bhante,
Warmest greetings!
E: You are priests, O Vāseṭṭhas
P: Tuṃhe kho brahmaṇā attha Vāseṭṭha (Intro to Pāli, p.34, last Q).
Answer given: Tuṃhe kho attha brahmaṇā Vāseṭṭha.
Q: What is the reason that attha needs to come before brahmaṇā?
If there any chance that “indirect Object” in a sentence would be in dative case please?
Thank you.
Off topic a bit.
Where did you get the answer? I usually get it from Wisdom and Wonders website (Ajahn Brahmali), but this lesson sees some info missing.
Life is getting more interesting… I wish I could remember how I learnt to manage English!
mā maṃ upadusso. ahaṃ ‘a lot’ pucchāmi. 
Question 1: The difference between the third person pronouns ‘tad’, ‘etad’ and ‘idaṃ’? (In fact, ‘etad’ and ‘idaṃ’)
tad = that in English
etad = this in English (close at hand and more immediately present)
idaṃ = this in English (more immediately present)
Meiland gives an example on Page 39:
This ascetic asks us the meaning. = ayaṃ samaṇo amhe atthaṃ pucchati.
Why did he use ‘idaṃ’ to modify the word atthaṃ?
Question 2: verb to be = √bhū and √hū and √as
Difference in meaning and usage between all three when it comes to first and second persons forms?
My guess: in regard to meaning: √hū = verb to be, √bhū = verb to become, √as = verb to exist. Correct? Please explain.
Question 3: Apostrophe
‘Learning Pali’ puts an apostrophe after ‘etad’ in
Ānando bhagavantaṃ etad’ avoca
Why?
Question 4: Stem {ta(d)}
Warder Page 29: “It may serve to connect the sentences of a narrative into a continuous paragraph or longer section. It is used also as an emphatic pronoun”
Do we need to know it now? Or, will it be explained in detail later? If now, could you please give an example (with translation, of course :-D)
Question 5: Use of Dictionary (again!)
When I looked up the word ‘avoca’, DPD says that it is the aroist form for the ‘reflextive singular’ and ‘the second person singular’.
I’m perplexed…
I know that how to use dictionaries is not in the curriculum, but that is what we non-native speakers have to do in real life. Please teach us…
Question 6: atthi deva Jotipālo nāma māṇavo putto ti.
What is the function of the word putto here? The translation is “There is, O King, the young priest, (his) son named Jotipāla”.
It sounds confusing to me. It sounds as if there was a young priest and his son is Jotipāla. I thought Jotipāla was a young priest (info from the previous lesson). Could it be that the original intended message is: Don’t be sad as there’s a young Brahmin/priest name Jotipāla, who is the son of your chief priest (who has just passed away).
Question 7: atha kho rājā Disampati purisaṃ āmantesi.
Translation = And then, King Disampati addressed a man.
Can the word purisṃ here mean a (king’s) servant? DPD says purisa can mean a servant.
Question 8: rājā khattiyo taṃ purisaṃ etad avoca
= The noble king said this to that man
What is the function of the word khattiyo here? The translation makes it sound like this king is a ‘noble’ human being in contrast to a bad king.
Can it be translated as “The king of the noble caste said to that servant”? If so, what is the purpose of having the word khattiyo here? I thought only people of the khattiya caste could become kings.
Question 9: ahaṃ purohito brāhmaṇo ahosiṃ
= I was the Brahmin who was the prime minister.
Can it be “I was the king’s Brahmin chief advisor”?
Question 10: ahaṃ asmi brahmā issaro
= I am God the Lord.
Can it be “I am God Brahmā”?
Question 11: so nirodhaṃ phusati
= He attains the cessation of suffering.
My feeling says that it should be “He has attained the cessation of suffering”.
What’s the difference/similarity between the English present perfect tense (recent past) and the Pali present tense and past tense?
Question 12: na taṃ deva vañcemi
= Oh King, I’m not deceiving you.
How many English tenses are possible for this sentence?
Question 13: eso mahārāja bhagavā
= Great King, this is the Blessed One.
What tells us that this is a vocative sentence?
Since mahārāja in nominative case looks the same as the vocative case, can this sentence be literally translated as “This king is a blessed One”?
Question 14: evam2 etaṃ brāhmaṇa
= Thus it is, Brahmin. / That is so, Brahmin.
Can it be “Dear Brahmin, this is it”?
Question 15: I teach the doctrine
= ahaṃ imāni dhammaṃ desemi
Why didn’t Warder add the word imāni here to indicate the article ‘the’?
Question 16: I am a priest
= brāhmaṇo asmi
Can it be brāhmaṇo homi? (I understand that Warder is teaching √as, so he wants us to use √as.)
Sincerest apologies if I’ve asked too many questions or the answers are very clear (=staring at me but I’ve failed to see them!).
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Dheerayupa asks great questions!! Here are a few more:
-
Warder translates rājā khattiyo taṃ purisaṃ etad avoca as ‘The noble king said this to that man.’ Could it equally be “The noble king said that to this man.’ ?
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Is there no niggahīta on the final m of mā saddam akattha because of the following vowel, or because of a misprint?
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Is amha a variant of mayam? Is there any difference in meaning or emphasis?
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Can rājanaṃ vañcesi be both ‘You are deceiving the king.’ & ‘She was deceiving the king.’ ?
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A. K. Warder Pali Answer Key.pdf (1.1 MB)
Here it is.
From “Sujato Pali Course 2023: resources”
Mettena,
Thank you. I got the answer from Meiland before I saw your post. But thank you, anyway. 
A few quick answers-
-
The e prefixing tam gives closer proximity. (This vs. that)
-
Yes, it seems the m moves to labial for a quasi sandhi.
-
Amha is the first person plural form of the verb atthi, it’s not a pronoun.
(There is a mayam variant amhe. ) -
Is vañcesi a is a second person singular present indicative or a 3rd person singular aorist (she deceived the king)??
I don’t understand the difference here:
I teach this doctrine
imaṃ dhammaṃ desemi
I teach the doctrine
ahaṃ dhammaṃ desemi
where, in the first example, we use the deictic stem idaṃ- (acc. sing. masc.) (which makes perfect sense to me) but, in the second example, we use the personal pronoun stem ma(d)- (nom. 1st p. sing.) (which does not make sense to me).
thanks
I don’t understand your question- are you asking why the personal pronoun ‘aham’ means I?
Question 17: My attempt to answer Beth’s question. Is it correct?
My attempt:
The first sentence “imaṃ dhammaṃ desemi”, the subject ahaṃ is omitted.
The second sentence, the article ‘the’ is omitted.
Since the text says: “There being no “definite article” in Pali the demonstrative pronouns are sometimes used where English would use the definite article, and may sometimes be translated “the” rather than “he”, “that”, “this”, etc.” I’d think that we should try using the demonstrative adjectives to mean ‘the’. So, the second sentence should be translated as:
ahaṃ imaṃ dhammaṃ desemi.
If it is correct, in the sentence ahaṃ imaṃ dhammaṃ desemi, imaṃ can be translated as both this dhamma or the dhamma.
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We do find this usage. When confessing offenses, the junior refers to the senior in plural. Not sure if this is a canonical usage tho.
And to you!
First, take care of your spellings:
Tuṃhe kho brahmaṇā attha Vāseṭṭha
Tumhe kho brahmaṇā attha Vāseṭṭhā
I don’t think it 100% does, and in any case this word order is not very idiomatic, we still haven’t learned enough. But Warder wants to emphasize that they are brahmins, hence attha immediately before brahmaṇā.
We’re not touching dative until lesson 12! But for any questions about syntax, I always check Wijesekera’s magisterial Syntax of the Cases in the Pali Nikayas.
You already gave the answer: because he is present.
√hū and √bhū are the same verb, they just differ in form.
Yes, you could say √as is “exist”, but with such widely used verbs context reigns supreme.
Just a convention. In theory, Pali doesn’t end words with consonants. In manuscripts it would be written etadavoca. Modern editors might write etadavoca, etad avoca, etad’avoca, or etad’ avoca.
Just look out for it.
I don’t think it’s 2nd sing, maybe we have different versions of DPD?
As for “reflexive” AKA “middle” forms, all you need to know is that these are alternate forms of some verbs, which are usually quite rare (avoca is an exception). (They are residual forms in Pali with little or no difference in meaning.)
Practically speaking you can ignore whether it says “reflexive”.
It’s just the coplua: a = b, māṇavo = putto. The context doesn’t say whose son.
Spelling! purisaṁ could indeed mean “servant”. In this case, it would be a “king’s man”, i.e. a court functionary.
Okay, sounds a little clumsy though. “Prime minister” doesn’t really convey the right sense. Better:
I was the Brahmin high priest.
Remember, the crucial role of the purohita was to crown the king by officiating at the coronation. Yes, they would have advised the king, but so would many others. Basically they’re like the Archbishop of Canterbury.
Sure. But remember, Warder said the emphatic asmi comes before the word emphasized. I might translate it:
I am Brahmā, the Lord Creator.
No, in context it is present tense.
Too complicated!
Possible? I would have no clue. But it’s present tense.
mahārāja ends with a short a.
It doesn’t: nominative is mahārājā. (DPD says vocative can also be mahārājā, but I’m not sure this is true, anyway it would be rare.)
Well, while in English we employ “dear” as a formalization for the vocative, Pali doesn’t. “Dear” would rather be tāta.
Otherwise, formally yes, but English “this is it” implies you’ve been looking for something and found it. In context, this phrase is used to affirm something that someone has just said. So idiomatically it would be, “you’re right”, “I agree”, “that’s spot on!”, etc.
There’s no article “the”, and none needed. Moreover, the numbers disagree: it would be imaṁ dhammaṁ. However, that would not mean “the Dhamma” but “this Dhamma” (as opposed to other Dhammas).
Sure.
Not really, as etad is closer than tad. It would be used in the context of reporting speech, where the “man” is absent. “The king said this to that man: …what the king said …”
It’s normally spelled as a compound, where the niggahita becomes “m” as a sandhi (joining sound): saddamakattha. But saddaṁ akattha is also correct.
No, amha is “we are”, mayaṁ is “we”. They can be used together for emphasis or separately.
It’d be one of:
- you deceive the king
- she deceived the king
- they deceived the king (using singular “they”)
They’re similar meaning, but different emphasis.
I teach this doctrine (not some other doctrine)
I teach the doctrine (not someone else)
Answered above, but just to make sure: the two statements are not 100% equivalent. Adding imaṁ emphasizes this doctrine not some other doctrine.
Note though that I am overemphasizing the emphasis for the sake of clarity. Normally you’d translate “I teach this doctrine” and it would be just fine.
Nice questions everyone, and thanks for the help Stephen!
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Thank you, Bhante, for such great answers.
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Question 18: Dear Ajahn, is my following attempted answer correct?
mayam = pronoun ‘we’ (nominative case)
amha = verb {atthi}
According to PDP, it means pr. (+nom) there is; there exists [√as + ti] ✓
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‘Amha’ is the 1st person plural form of the verb ‘to be’ atthi.
It means ‘we are’.
Another version of the same is ‘asma’ which may be more common.
In your quoted entry, what does “pr. (+nom)” mean?
Also, what is PDP? Is that the gold dictionary people are talking about?
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That’s correct. 
I’m trying!
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Dear Bhante,
I’m going to make personal notes on certain issues according to my understanding. (To be honest with you, my brain doesn’t work well with the way Warder teaches.)
Would it be possible for me to submit it here as a link to the file(s) I’ll create on my One Drive for you to check? and others to comment if they so wish?
Thank you for all your patience and compassion
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