Condensed version of Pali Canon

Translations
21

I think he just means literally deleting the introduction to suttas, and suttas that only differ in the introduction.

I don’t know how to quickly look up an example, but there are some suttas, particularly in the AN, that are like this:

AN#.## “thus have I heard: at one time, the buddha was staying at location X. Person A approached him, and [DISCOURSE]”

AN#.## “thus have I heard: at one time, the buddha was staying at location Y. Person B approached him, and [DISCOURSE]”

Where [DISCOURSE] is literally word-for-word the exact same text, or only differs in that Person A/B’s name is used a few more times. So, if you’re only interested in the content of the suttas, and not the context, you could just jettison those introductions and then keep one copy of the [DISCOURSE] text block.

As-is suttacentral handles this, and related cases, by doing something like saying:

AN#.## “thus have I heard: at one time, the buddha was staying at location X. Person A approached him, and [DISCOURSE]”

AN#.## “thus have I heard: at one time, the buddha was staying at location Y. Person B approached him, and… (text follows as per previous sutta)”

Personally, I think it would be nice if, at some point in the future, there could exist a representation that just uses some modern design technology to better handle passages that are clearly just the verbal version of a table.

For example, for feelings in connection to the sense bases, instead of just saying in sequence “pleasant feeling in connection to the eye…” you have a table where the rows are sense bases and the columns are vedanas. There’s a lot of extant design techniques to represent even higher-dimensional matrixes on a 2d paper or screen.

22

This would be cool, but just remember: it’s an abstraction, and all abstractions hide and distort.

Consider SN 35.1, a simple text on the six senses. Notice anything?

The passage on the eye is spelled out in full. Then the ear and nose are abbreviated. Then the tongue is in full again. Body is abbreviated, and mind is spelled out in full.

Weird, right? You’d expect to state in full the first and last factors, or just the first. But why just one factor in the middle of the list?

Now, the next sutta just has the eye in full, and abbreviates the rest. The next several are similar.

Then we come to SN 35.7. Here, once again, the tongue is spelled out in full.

We find this pattern repeated many times, but only in this collection. Everywhere else, so far as I know, the abbreviation pattern is more expected.

Why? Is there some reason for this? Is it a feature of a manuscript tradition? I don’t know, and I don’t even know if anyone else has noticed this.

This is just an example, but it shows how unpredictable and quirky the original texts can be. That’s what makes them interesting!

When we abstract on top of them, we are effectively doing “abhidhamma”, and like the traditional Abhidhammapiṭaka we might go to great lengths to get every detail right, but also to erase the meaning of context and particularity.

Which is why, IMHO, such approaches are better as dedicated and specialized projects, rather than being incorporated as a “version” of the canon.

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23

I actually didn’t at first, because I tend to just read the English (except for passages I intend on memorizing). I assumed 100% of the abbreviation was simply done at your (or other translators’) discretion. I had no idea, up until now, that the underlying pali suttas have lacunae like that.

…pe… (from the pali text) doesn’t have a translation, and those characters don’t seem to occur in the unabbreviated section. Is that just the much more respectful pali version of going “blah blah blah”? Would you literally chant “Sotaṁ aniccaṁ. Yadaniccaṁ …pe…”

In the AN, for example here, does nobody ever actually say (in Pali), “For the complete ending of greed, eleven things should be developed. What eleven? The first, second, third, and fourth absorptions; the heart’s releases by love, compassion, rejoicing, and equanimity; the dimensions of infinite space, infinite consciousness, and nothingness. For the complete ending of greed, these eleven things should be developed.” Would they literally say (in pali) “For the complete understanding of greed … complete ending … giving up … ending … vanishing … fading away … cessation … giving away … letting go of negligence … these eleven things should be developed.”

Very interesting!

24

This is the whole reason I would love to have a condensed version! for example, DN1 gives what has come to be known as the “gradual training” involving 3 sections on ethics, mindfulness as situational attention, removing the hinderances, developing the 4 jhanas, mastering psychic techniques the achieving the 3 knowledges. This gradual training is repeated, more or less verbatim, in every sutta for the next 12 suttas, and probably elsewhere in the canon as well. It would be lovely to have a book (or a website) that gave this, clearly fundamental and essential text, that reciters of the DN tradition thought was worth repeating thirteen times in a row at the beginning of their recension, and then, after giving the text, indicated at what other points in the canon it was repeated, at what locations and to what audiences, what variations and pericopes are seen etc, so that the student can easily find the text, its variations and the locations in the canon for it.

I should probably also explain that I am not seeking help in understanding or developing my practice of buddhism, I practice breath meditation and use the framework of the four truths and I read widely and when the opportunity arises to discuss with like minded friends I do that. I am very happy with my practice and it continues to grow and develop with me.

I am also interested however in the academic study of buddhism, as a social historical doctrinal and textual phenomena, and it is this that I am addressing when I imagine my miraculous summary and concordance, not spiritual practice.

So for example I am currently re-reading DN after reading it and MN in the Maurice Walshe and Bikkhu Nanamoli translations many years ago when I was a voracious reader of buddhist texts that could be secured form second hand book shops. But now re-reading DN I would very much like to seperate out a lot of the “dross”, which in DN’s case is not so much metaphysics as it is just spending inordinate amounts of text denigrating brahmins, which i am sure was important at the time but which holds very little interest for me now.

So I would like to be able to see at a glance where the repetitions are, how often they occur, how many locations they are claimed to occur at and before how many monks, and so on, with the underlying idea being that the pericopes that occur the most frequently, with the widest distribution across the most Suttas and nikiyas and locations (i.e veasali, etc not locations in the text) might represent the texts that could most confidently be claimed to stem from the earliest teaching of the buddha and are the most unlikely to be later additions or errors of transmission.

It is often hard to work out in practice when reading contemporary academics exactly to what extent their claims hold up to scrutiny, for example reading Analayo’s analysis of the awakening I was struck that he makes claims about parallels but does not give lists of such parallels, and this makes it difficult to explore his ideas in more depth.

Obviously when someone like Analayo is writing a paper they want to convey their research findings not provide laborious and exhaustive apparatus like tables of parallels, but it is something like that that I want, at first for the core of the Pali, but then, one day, for the Agamas and Sutra portion of the Tibetan as well.

Finally I realise that I am rambling and typing too fast and perhaps not engaging as patiently as I should with individual replies, but I just want to say that I greatly appreciate ALL of you for providing me with a forum to discuss and air my half-baked thoughts and learn from so many different voices and perspectives.

This forum has been a revelation to me and I am just enjoying being on it so much. Thanks again.

25

I am taking a different approach. I am trying to figure out what is the minimum to completely understand the Eightfold Path. That means not just understanding each step in isolation, but how they relate to one another, especially to Right View.

The Buddha was a logical man. I suspect he would have approved of Einstein’s quote “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.” Think raft, not cruise ship. I suspect his dharma was logically coherent and complete, but limited in scope to the problem laid out in Right View. Note: Right View is not the whole of the canon.

I am not saying anything outside of this is wrong, but it should be evaluated on how much it contributes to illuminating the path. Too much obscures the path. I feel like I am trying to find a needle in a haystack.

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26

I already know the answer to this question: Enlightenment! Full awakening is the minimum requirement to completely understand the path :slight_smile:

Forgive my joke, but honestly I still think we are in furious agreement, it is simply that you are more interested in a tool for the practice of the path whereas I am seeking a tool for the academic study of Buddhism. Both would be great :slight_smile:

27

Indeed it is!

It’s a complex question. Abbreviations have been required ever since the Dhamma was written down. But what of the oral tradition?

These days, when a text is recited aloud, it is typically recited in full. However, only a small selection of texts is normally recited.

What happens when a text is recited in full? For example, I have participated in a number of Tipitaka Chanting ceremonies at Bodhgaya. There the Sangha would sit and recite for a few weeks, gradually working through a major text such as a Nikaya. Each year a new text would be taken up, until the Tipitaka was completed.

Now, in that case, we just recited whatever was on the page. What else could we do? We couldn’t be expected to somehow figure out the exact details of every text expansion on the fly. This is an extremely difficult job even for specialized scholars.

What, however, happened when the Sangha was memorizing texts for transmission? In that case, I would expect that often they might be recited in full. However, there must be limits. There are multiple passages that would simply be unutterably tedious to recite in full, such as the abbreviated repetition series in AN and SN. I can imagine a specially diligent reciter chanting them in full on occasion, but surely they must have normally be abbreviated.

Worse, in the Abhidhamma there are some texts that, if they were ever expanded in full, would take lifetimes to recite. Years ago I calculated that the Patthana, if printed out in full, would make a book so thick it would reach halfway from Sydney to Melbourne. Such text can never have been recited in full, or indeed, been physically represented in any way. It is a text that only exists in abbreviated form. Today, of course, it would be possible to expand the text fully in a digital form. It’d be years of work, and the end result would be quite unreadable!

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28

If this included Chinese and Sanskrit discourses in translation, I would 100% love this idea. Of course, a lot more would need to be translated first before this could be done.

29

Indeed yes, that would be a holy grail! It’s a shame that the bulk of the work in the field, like that of Ven Analayo, is still focused on academic publication rather than general readers. Obviously Analayo can’t do everything, we need more people to pick up the slack. Charles is doing amazing work with his translations, and we are now getting to a point where there are major portions of Chinese Agamas on SuttaCentral. In coming years, perhaps it will be normal for introductions to Suttas to feature texts from multiple different backgrounds.

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30

Yea. It is coming along nicely! Exciting times when it comes to translation of Buddhist texts right now.

31

If a condensed version of the Pali Canon is to be made for the benefit of all those who wish to benefit from that, it must be done in a systematic manner. People may have their own view as to what a condensed version of the Pali Canon is. Some may consider that condensing each and every individual Sutta is what this is. Others may consider condensing each Nikaya is what this is. Both of them can be useful in their own way. My personal view of a condensed version of a Pali Canon is that whatever the useful information in the different parts of the Pali Canon be summarised and organised in a systematic manner regardless of which Sutta or Nikaya that it comes from. Given that similar type of content is present in the various Suttas and Nikayas, in my opinion, when it comes to condensing it seems to make more sense to prioritise topics and themes when it comes to placing the content as opposed to be concerned about which particular Sutta or Nikaya that the content happens to come from.

To give an example to illustrate my point, lets take the Satipatthana as a teaching and a practice. We have the MN10, DN22 as well as the Satipatthana Samyutta. In addition to this there may be various Suttas or aspects in the canon which may touch on the topic of Satipatthana without mentioning about it in an explicit manner. In my opinion all of this can be condensed under the topic of Satipatthana. So when one reads this chapter or topic then it will be the equivalent to reading all the content in the canon which touch on the topic of Satipatthana.

Likewise all the content in the canon can be put into different chapters, topics and themes. A basic overall framework to arrange the chapters and themes needs not be taken up in a rigid way when in the process of making this piece of work. The 4NT can be a useful overall framework to arrange the topics. For example lets take the Paṭiccasamuppāda where it can be placed under the 2nd Noble Truth. Whatever the content in the Pali Canon which is to do with the Paṭiccasamuppāda teachings can come under this chapter or topic.

The framework itself need not be explicitly stated in the end product. This is for the following reasons. Firstly some topics may span more than one aspect of the 4NT. Secondly, even though many aspects of the teachings may neatly fit into the headings of the 4NT or N8FP there can be some exceptions where some aspects of the teachings may not exactly fit into the framework in their entirety the way we would want them to appear. For example, lets take the Brahmavihara where it may not appear to fit neatly into any individual aspect of the N8FP according to the way it is defined. However we still can include it within the theme of practices or mental attitudes that need to be developed according to the Dhamma. Aspects of the N8FP may touch on different aspects of the Brahmavihara, such as Avihimsa in the Right Intention as well as being free from Byapada when developing Right Concentration. Either way it doesn’t need to be a rigid framework where the Brahmavihara need to fit into one aspect of the N8FP under the 4th Noble Truth. Instead we can have a relatively more ‘open’ theme where all these practices and mental attitudes to be developed can all come under a large section of the book called ‘Practices conducive towards Enlightenment’ or something along those lines which imply inclusivity of the practices taught in the Pali Canon. To put it across differently, the N8FP along with the content that fits into that can be included within the wider category of practices or mental attitudes that are conducive towards Enlightenment or well-being.

It is true that names of individuals as well as incidents or events which are present within the canon are important to put things into context. However when condensing the Pali Canon they can be omitted where the context could be explained in abstract form to say the most. In my opinion I am not encouraging a replacement for the Pali Canon by any mean. It is true that part of the purpose behind my thoughts is for more people to obtain the benefits of the teachings by reading less than what is there in the Pali Canon. But on a side note I do see that this will also help more readers to later start reading the Pali Canon compared to the number of people who are already reading the Pali Canon at present.

Speaking a bit further on the organisation of the content, that it has to be done in such a way that it is streamlined to the reader where one feels that one is transitioning from one topic to another in a near-gradual manner. Once again the 4NT may seem promising as an overall framework to place all these different chapters and themes but bearing in mind that it may be taken up in a loose manner as opposed to adhering to it in a rigid manner.

I am reading Buddhadhamma by P.A Payutto (which I still havnt finished) and the more I read I get the impression that this seems like an attempt to condense the Dhamma into a systematic order. He himself implies in the introduction that it is not meant to encompass all different academic viewpoints based on different topics. So this is part of the reason why this kind of work needs to be done as team work as part of a thinktank where there are different minds who are fully understanding about the intent and purpose behind such work in a positive and encouraging manner.

32

I agree that the EBTs should be made more accessible and understandable to more laypeople. Especially since in my experience, translators tend to use a very formal tone (sometimes even biblical) in their writing. This is probably because they are intellectual, but not everyone can read at that level.

Some of the texts are already condensations of other texts, if I’m not mistaken. The KN has Kp Dhp Ud etc. which are all doable to read. And the SN is ordered by theme. My guess is that a different Nikaya suits a different learning style. Hence the repetition between different Nikayas.

Reducing the canon also carries the risk of creating misinterpretations of the Dhamma, which has already happened so many times throughout history.