Daṇḍavagga - daṇḍa -The Rod, stick or punishment

I take this opportunity to thank the generations who continued the word and teaching of buddha over the time into multiple languages maintaining the legacy over time, and all the translators and teams involved in making the teachings available online and in AI.

While many teachings are to the point and translated to best possible words and meanings which can be derived in appropriate language others miss the point. I will like to bring this topic for discussion on

While in languages like Sanskrit, Pali and Hindi, the letter has different symbol and two different meanings altogether, and its funny that when any of these nouns are translated in English suffix with “a” is automatically added, not sure why?
like Ram becomes Rama and like wise danḍa - दंड becomes ḍanḍā - डंडा

In Suttacentral different translations in this context, fail to provide complete meaning

some translate it as - violence,
others - the rod, the stick, or thrashing

while one meaning is

daṇḍa- The Rod, Piece of Wood, Stick, डंडा

masculine

  1. a piece of wood; a club; a stick, a staff, a rod; an ascetic’s staff
  2. the arm or neck of a vīṇā
  3. power, violence; act of violence
  4. punishment (corporal or fiscal); a fine

And other meaning is this, in current context which Buddha meant is below, its more potent and appropriate

दंड - penalty, punishment

/danḍa/

  1. penalty countable noun
    A penalty is a punishment for doing something which is against a law or rule.
    The death penalty for murder was abolished here in 1969.
  2. punishment variable noun
    A punishment is a particular way of punishing someone.
    The usual punishment is a fine of £100.

This term is still used in India in many states as Magistrate or the judge

दंडाधिकारी

/danḍādhikārī/
magistrate countable noun
A magistrate is a person who is appointed to act as a judge in law courts which deal with minor crimes or disputes.

Dhp129 - All tremble rod, the better word is All are afraid of or troubled by punishment

Chabbaggiyabhikkhuvatthu
All tremble at the rod,
Sabbe tasanti daṇḍassa,
all fear death.
sabbe bhāyanti maccuno;
Treating others like oneself,
Attānaṁ upamaṁ katvā,
neither kill nor incite to kill.
na haneyya na ghātaye.

dhp133 - in this context rod may spring back on you looses the meaning, punishment will fall back on you makes more sense

Don’t speak harshly,
Māvoca pharusaṁ kañci,
they may speak harshly back.
vuttā paṭivadeyyu taṁ;
For aggressive speech is painful,
Dukkhā hi sārambhakathā,
and the rod may spring back on you.
paṭidaṇḍā phuseyyu taṁ.

dhp135 - the word here is appropriate , though proper meaning is stick or like a [whip](https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/hindi-english/चाबुक)

As a cowherd drives the cows
Yathā daṇḍena gopālo,
to pasture with the rod,
gāvo pājeti gocaraṁ;
so too old age and death
Evaṁ jarā ca maccu ca,
drive life from living beings.
āyuṁ pājenti pāṇinaṁ.

dhp137 - here the rod is not used, instead violently attacks is used. proper meaning should be one who punishes the innocent, and treats them as guilty those who are blameless

One who violently attacks
Yo daṇḍena adaṇḍesu,
the peaceful and the innocent
appaduṭṭhesu dussati;
swiftly falls
Dasannamaññataraṁ ṭhānaṁ,
to one of ten bad states:
khippameva nigacchati.

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Here is the full entry from Margaret Cone’s Dictionary of Pali, giving a broad spectrum of meanings:

daṇḍa

m.n. [ts], 1. a piece of wood; a club; a stick, a staff, a rod; an ascetic’s staff; Abh 1044 (~o tu muggare); Vin II 131,29 (aññataro bhikkhu gilāno hoti na sakkoti vinā ~ena āhiṇḍituṃ); M I 86,24 (aññamaññaṃ pāṇīhi pi upakkamanti leḍḍūhi pi upakkamanti ~ehi pi upakkamanti satthehi pi upakkamanti); 134,18(ajapadena ~ena); II 104,6 (~o khitto āyasmato Aṅgulimālassa kāye nipatati); 155,8(jātarūpamayaṃ ~aṃ gahetvā); S I 176,21*(~assa ānubhāvena khalitvā paṭitiṭṭhati); IV 62,3 (manussā ~ena pahāraṃ dassanti); Dhp 135 (yathā ~ena gopālo gāvo pāceti gocaraṃ); Pv 36:48 (andhassa ~aṃ sayam ādiyāsi); Thī 17 (~am olubbha dubbalā); 123 (pattaṃ ~aṃ ca gaṇhitvā bhikkhamānā kulā kulaṃ; Thī-a 117,29 : ~an ti goṇasunakhādipariharaṇadaṇḍakaṃ); Ja II 415,6´ (~o ti ārakkhayaṭṭhiṃ sandhāya vuttaṃ); V 232,9* (kiṃ nu ~aṃ kiṃ ajinaṃ kiṃ chattaṃ kiṃ upāhanaṃ … taramānarūpo gaṇhāsi); VI 569,14* (passāma brāhmaṇaṃ devavaṇṇinaṃ ādāya beluvaṃ ~aṃ dhārentaṃ ajinakkhipaṃ); Spk III 65,21 (~enā ti muggarasadisena thūladaṇḍakena); Pv-a 220,11 (nimbarukkhassa ~ena katasūle); — ifc see ālamba-, ālambana-, kañcanaka- (sv kañcanaka1), kattara-, ti- (sv ti2), tulā-, deva-; — 2. a stalk; a handle; Abh 686 (~o tu nālam uccate); Ja I 313,7 (taṃ kuddālakaṃ ~e gahetvā); Ap 536,5 (Sineruṃ ~aṃ katvāna chattaṃ katvā mahāmahiṃ); Sp 290,13(suttakena vā ~o veṭhetabbo); 290,15(vātappahārena acalanatthaṃ chattamaṇḍalikaṃ rajjukehi gāhetvā ~e bandhanti); 311,8 (sace pana kuddālassa ~o n’ atthi ~aṃ karissāmī ti vāsiṃ vā pharasuṃ vā niseti); — ifc see aravindaka-, karavandaka-, khara- (s v khara1); — 3. the arm or neck of a vīṇā (see A.K. Coomaraswamy, 1930b, pp. 247–48); S IV 197,13 (doṇiṃ ca paṭicca cammaṃ ca paṭicca ~aṃ ca paṭicca … evāyaṃ bhante vīṇā … vadatī ti); Mil 53,20 (yathā mahārāja vīṇāya pattaṃ na siyā cammaṃ na siyā doṇi na siyā ~o na siyā …); Sv 699,30 (tassā kira sovaṇṇamayaṃ pokkharaṃ indanīlamayo ~o rajatamayā tantiyo …); — 4. power, violence; act of violence; M I 372,16 (tīni … Nigaṇṭho Nātaputto ~āni paññāpeti pāpassa kammassa kiriyāya … seyyathidaṃ kāyadaṇḍaṃ vacīkaṇḍaṃ manodaṇḍan ti); Dhp 129 (sabbe tasanti ~assa); Sn 35 (sabbesu bhūtesu nidhāya ~aṃ aviheṭhayaṃ aññataraṃ pi tesaṃ; Pj II 63,25 : ~an ti kāyavacīmanodaṇḍaṃ, kāyaduccaritādīnaṃ etaṃ adhivacanaṃ); 312 (eso adhammo ~ānaṃ); Nidd I 402,6 (tayo ~ā kāyadaṇḍo vacīdaṇḍo manodaṇḍo; Nidd-a I 423,12 : ~ā ti duccaritā); — ifc see atta- (sv ādiyati1), nihita- (sv nidahati2); — 5. punishment (corporal or fiscal); a fine; Abh 349 (~o tu sāhasaṃ damo); 1044 (~o … dame); Vin I 247,7 (yo bhagavato paccuggamanaṃ na karissati pañca satāni ~o ti); III 139,35 foll. (kehici ~o ṭhapito hoti yo itthannāmaṃ itthiṃ gacchati ettako ~o ti); M II 88,10 (ayaṃ te deva coro āgucārī, imassa yaṃ icchasi taṃ ~aṃ paṇehī ti); A I 138,16 (ayaṃ deva puriso … na kule jeṭṭhāpacāyī imassa devo ~aṃ paṇetū ti); Dhp 310 (rājā ca ~aṃ garukaṃ paṇeti; Dhp-a III 482,25 : rājā ca hatthacchedanādivasena garukaṃ ~aṃ paṇeti); Ja I 190,17 (yassa ghare taṃ sunakhaṃ passanti tassa ayaṃ nāma ~o ti bheriṃ carāpetha devā ti); II 121,4(bodhisatto kodhaṃ adhivāsetuṃ asakkonto evaṃ tesaṃ ~aṃ āṇāpetvā pi na tathā kāresi); IV 205,12* (imassa ~aṃ ca vadhaṃ ca datvā); VI 576,29* (nikkiṇissāmi ~ena, Ce, Ee so, perhaps wr; Be, Se dabbena; 577,5´ : dhanaṃ katvā mocessāmi); Mil 171,19 (tassa mayaṃ kahāpaṇaṃ ~aṃ dhārema); 193,7(koci puriso parassa paṇinā pahāraṃ dadeyya tassa tumhe kiṃ ~aṃ dhārethā ti); 221,5 foll. (ko bhante ummattakassa ~o bhavissati taṃ mayaṃ pothāpetvā nīharāpema eso va tassa ~o ti); Mp IV 12,1(rājāno … paveṇipotthakaṃ vācāpetvā anucchavikam eva ~aṃ pavattayanti); Dhp-a I 236,7 (rājā chaṇaṃ karontu akarontānaṃ ettako ~o ti āṇāpesi); II 71,22 (gāviṃ mārentassa sataṃ ~o purisaṃ mārentassa sahassaṃ); Vv-a 76,21 (Sirimāya dassanatthaṃ anāgacchantānaṃ aṭṭhakahāpaṇo ~o ti); Mhv 24:55 (rāja saṅghassa dos’ eso saṅgho ~aṃ karissati); — ifc see deva-, paṇīta- (sv paṇeti2), brahma-, rāja-; — ° âbhighāta, m., striking with sticks; Pv-a 58,9; — °’-ādāna, n. [daṇḍa + ādāna1], taking up a stick, violence; D III 92,26 (~aṃ paññāyissati); Vibh 390,16 (~aṃ satthādānaṃ kalaho viggaho …, Se so; Be, Ce, Ee as cpd; Ee wr daṇḍhādāna-); — °-kaṭhina, n., an extra frame (within the kaṭhina framework); Vin II 116,18 (kaṭhinaṃ na ppahoti, anujānāmi bhikkhave ~aṃ vidalakaṃ …; Sp 1206,13 : ~an ti tassa majjhe … aññaṃ nisseṇiṃ bandhituṃ anujānāmī ti attho); — °-kamma, n., a punishment; a penance; reparation; Vin I 84,16 (kiṃ nu kho ~aṃ kātabban ti); II 262,6; Ja I 230,14(tucchakoṭṭhake pūraṇena ~aṃ katvā mahāseṭṭhiṃ khamāpehī ti); III 276,19(khamāpetvā idaṃ me ~an ti sabbarūtajānanamantaṃ datvā); 490,7 (te tena ~ena pīḷitā); Mil 8,9 foll.; Sp 952,22 (so attanā va attānaṃ codetvā pattapuṭena vālikaṃ āharitvā imasmiṃ ṭhāne ākiratu idaṃ assa ~an ti); Ps IV 204,11 (yāva satthāraṃ na khamāpetha tāva vo idam eva ~an ti); Dhp-a II 108,9 (vajjaṃ disvā vajjānurūpaṃ tajjento paṇāmento ~aṃ karonto vihārā nīharanto sikkhāpeti); Mhv 5:101; — °-kaḷīravaṃsaṃ in Ee at Th-a I 6,14 is prob. wr; Be dantakaḷīraṃ va; Ce dantakaḷīramaṃsaṃ; Sekalīravaṃsaṃ; — °-gatika, mfn., depending on a stick, walking with a stick; Sv 455,14; — °-dīpikā, f. (and °-dīpaka, m.?) [daṇḍa + dīpikā1], a torch; Ja VI 398,31´ (~āhi); Vism 39,13 (devatā ~aṃ gahetvā aṭṭhāsi); Sv 552,7(~āyo jāletvā, Be, Ce, Ee so; Se °-dīpake) ≠ Spk I 206,2 (Be ~ā; Ce, Ee ~e; Se °-dīpakāni); II 394,23 (~āhi ḍayhamānaṃ viya); Mp I 411,19 (sā dāsīhi ~ā gāhāpetvā, Be, Ce, Ee so; Se daṇḍaka-) ≠ Dhp-a I 399,21 (Be so; Ce °-padīpake; Ee ~e; Se °-dīpake); Dhp-a I 220,16 (~āhi gehe aggiṃ dadamāno); — °-dhāra, m (fn)., (one) who administers justice; Ja III 441,24* (yo ~o bhavatīdha issaro); — °-dhārikāya in Ee at Sp 293,18 is wr fordaṇḍādhārake (Be, Ce, Se so); — °-nīti, f., the science of judicature; Abh 113 (daṇḍanīty atthasatthasmiṃ); — °-ppatta, mfn. [daṇḍa + patta4 or patta6], liable to punishment; Mil 46,21; — °-parāyana, mfn., dependent on a stick; D II 22,2 (addasā … purisaṃ jiṇṇaṃ gopānasivaṅkaṃ bhoggaṃ ~aṃ pavedhamānaṃ gacchantaṃ); Th 462 (yadā jiṇṇā bhavissāma ubho ~ā); Mil 282,7; Spk I 40,17 (jarājiṇṇena … ~ena … na sakkā kāme paribhuñjituṃ); — °-parissāvana, n., a kind of sieve or filter (made on a wooden framework);? Vin II 119,14 (parissāvanaṃ na sammati … anujānāmi bhikkhave ~an ti; Sp 1207,10 : ~an ti rajakānaṃ khāraparissāvanaṃ viya catūsu pādesu baddhanisseṇikāya sāṭakaṃ bandhitvā majjhe daṇḍake udakaṃ āsiñcitabbaṃ, taṃ ubho pi koṭṭhāse pūretvā parissavati, Be, Ce so; Ee, Se daṇḍakaparissāvanan ti); — °-pāṇi, mfn., with a staff in one’s hand; Vin IV 200,25 (na ~issa agilānassa dhammaṃ desessāmī ti); M I 108,20 (~i pi kho Sakko … daṇḍam olubbha ekamantaṃ aṭṭhāsi; or Npr.; Ps II 73,7 foll. : na jarādubbalatāya daṇḍahattho, ayaṃ hi taruṇo … suvaṇṇadaṇḍaṃ gahetvā vicarati); — °-bunda, °-bundha, m.n., the bottom of the handle; Sp 290,13 (~e pana ahicchattakasaṇṭhānaṃ vaṭṭati, Be, Ce, Ee so; Se °-bundhe; Sp-ṭ [Be] II 119,8 : ~e ti daṇḍa-mūle); Vin-vn 3033 (~amhi); — °-maṇikā, (m) f (n). [scil. asanī̆], a type of lightning; Sv 569,22 foll. (navavidhā hi asaniyo asaññā … kukkuṭakā ~ā sukkhāsanī ti … ~ā naṅgalasadisā hutvā patati); — °-māṇavaka, °-mānavaka, m.n. [cf S.daṇḍamāṇava?], a kind of bird;? D III 202,4(sukasālikasadd’ ettha ~āni ca, Be, Se so; Ce, Ee °-mānavakāni; Sv 968,6 foll. : manussamukhasakuṇā, te kira dvīhi hatthehi suvaṇṇadaṇḍaṃ gahetvā ekaṃ pokkharapattaṃ akkamitvā anantare pokkharapatte suvaṇṇadaṇḍaṃ nikkhipantā vicaranti); — °-vākarā, °-vākurā, °-vāgurā, f., a net on a stick; a kind of snare; M I 153,19(mahatīhi ~āhi, Be, Ce, Ee so; Se °-vāgurāhi; Ps II 161,19 : ~-jālehi); Sp 397,12(migaluddakā mahatīhi ~āhi araññaṃ parikkhipitvā, Ee so; Be, Ce, Se °-vāgurāhi) ≠ Spk III 266,32 (Be, Ce, Se daṇḍavāgurādīhi; Ee leḍḍudaṇḍavākurādīhi); Th-a III 36,18(migānaṃ maraṇatthāya °-vāguraṃ oḍḍetvā); Thī-a 76,29 (~’-ādimigapāsaṃ … oḍḍiyitvā, Ce, Se so; Be, Ee °-vākurādi-); — °-vinipāta, m., making a stick fall, wielding a stick; Sadd 533,26 (daṇḍa ~e: daṇḍeti); — °-sattha, n.[daṇḍa + sattha1], a stick and/or sword; — ~-abbhukkiraṇa, n., raising, brandishing a stick or sword; Nidd I 216,12 (atthi kañci kālaṃ kodho ~-parāmasanamatto hoti na ca tāva ~-abbhukkiraṇo hoti, eds so; better ~-abbhuggiraṇo? Nidd-a I 322,35 : ~aṃ ukkhipitvā paharaṇo na ca tāva hoti); — ~âbhinipāta, m., wielding, striking with, a stick or sword; Ps II 132,16; — ~âbhipātana, n., id.; Nidd I 216,14 (atthi kañci kālaṃ kodho ~-abbhukkiraṇamatto hoti, na ca tāva ~âbhipātano hoti); — °-satthaka, n. [daṇḍa + satthaka1], a knife with a handle; Vin II 115,26; — °-hattha, mfn., with stick or staff in hand; Ja I 59,5 (ekaṃ devaputtaṃ … obhagga-sarīraṃ ~aṃ pavedhamānaṃ); V 72,5 (~ā nivārenti itthiyo purisā ca maṃ); — adaṇḍa, mfn. and m., 1. (mfn.) without a stick; not punishing, not violent; D II 276,6(averā ~ā asapattā avyāpajjhā viharemu; Sv 718,26 : ~ā ti āvudhadaṇḍadhanadaṇḍavinimmuttā); Dhp 137 (yo daṇḍena ~esu); — 2. (m.) not a stick or staff; not violence; Vin IV 200,28 (daṇḍo nāma majjhimassa purisassa catuhattho daṇḍo, tato ukkaṭṭho ~o omako ~o); — adaṇḍena, without punishment, without violence; Vin II 196,4* (daṇḍen’ eke damayanti aṅkusehi kasāhi ca ~ena asatthena nāgo danto mahesinā); D I 89,6 (so imaṃ paṭhaviṃ sāgarapariyantaṃ ~ena asatthena dhammena abhivijiya ajjhāvasati); M II 122,15 (~ena vata kira bho asatthena evaṃ suvinītā parisā bhavissatī ti); Sn 1002 (~ena asatthena dhammena-m-anusāsati); — adaṇḍāvacara, mfn., being the sphere of the non-violent or non-violence; D II 285,17(somanassapaṭilābho … ~âvacaro asatthāvacaro); S I 224,11 (gāthāyo … ~âvacarā asatthāvacarā; Spk I 344,3 foll. : daṇḍāvacaraṇarahitā, daṇḍaṃ vā satthaṃ va gahetabban ti evaṃ ettha n’ atthī ti attho, Be, Ce, Ee so; Se daṇḍāvacarakā rahitā); Ja IV 360,1* (~âvacaraṃ maggaṃ sammāsambuddhadesitaṃ; 360,6´ : ~ehi nikkhittadaṇḍasatthehi avacaritabbaṃ); — sadaṇḍa, mfn., with a stick; violent; D II 276,7(saverā ~ā sasapattā); S I 19,25* (sā dakkhiṇā assumukhā ~ā; Spk I 60,13 : daṇḍena tajjetvā paharitvā dinnadakkhiṇā ~ā ti vuccati); — sadaṇḍāvacara, mfn., being the sphere of the violent or violence; D II 285,12(somanassapaṭilabho ~âvacaro sasatthāvacaro; Sv 739,6 foll. : sadaṇḍāvacarako daṇḍaggahaṇena satthaggahaṇena saddhiṃ ahosi, na nikkhittadaṇḍasattho ti dasseti, Be so; Sesadaṇḍo avacarako; Ce sadaṇḍāvacaraṇo; Ee daṇḍāvacaraṇo); S I 224,8 (gāthāyo … ~âvacarā sasatthāvacarā); — see alsochattadaṇḍagāhanaka (sv chatta1), tedaṇḍika, daṇḍādaṇḍī.

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Thanks for this elaborate broad spectrum, while in this definition #1 and #5 cover both the meanings we need to be mindful that the script, (the letter and representation) of both words in #1 and #5 is different in Sanskrit, Hindi and Pali

But danḍa isn’t used in pāli?

daṇḍa is used here (its dative declension). I have to think that’s why Bhante Sujato translates it the way he does. (He seems to talk about “the principle of least meaning” a lot :smiley: .)

Going back to your very interesting information, this is:

And it is not:

Are you suggesting that the daṇḍa form used here should be translated with more meaning (vs the principle of least meaning)? Again, it would appear this correlates to:

and not:

Referring to Margaret Cone’s #5 definition that Stephen referenced, your proposed translation seems like a lot of extra meaning gets added to the bare language.

I don’t know…this is interesting to study. But I’m not completely following your method.

:elephant: :pray:t3:

Meaning of danḍa is used. There are several other occurances i cant quote all, the word buddh and buddha is another example. Srilankan monks translate it right say buddh, while any western say buddha.

There is no method. All i say keep it simple, the alphabets are different, the meanings are different. Who ever understands the difference its crystal clear for them and they wont mix #1 and #5 ever, its unfortunate that readers in english get this taste which isnt perfect, i am trying to help them understand the difference and update dictionaries if they are incomplete.

And i am not pointing fingers to anyone. All transkations in english miss this subtle aspect.

What? It could be that “Buddh” is Hindi? (I have heard Hindi speakers will say “dukkh” instead of the Pali “Dukkha”) But the Pali is “Buddha” no matter what script you use.

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right several words, Anand vs Ananda being translated to english, probably this article gives more details https://www.quora.com/Why-is-there-the-letter-A-at-the-end-of-every-Sanskrit-word-like-Ramayana-Rama-Brahmana-etc-How-are-they-pronounced-with-A-or-without-A

which makes it difficult to understand what originally was plural or came with suffix a and what wasn’t

“Ānanda” isn’t being translated into English. It is a Pāli word and it is kept as Pali in English translations. It’s true that in translation it is always “Ānanda” no matter what the Pāli declension would be.

Maybe if you are translating into Hindi then it is pronounced as “Ānand”. But that’s because (I think) that final consonants are often dropped.

Unless I’m missing something.

There isn’t an English word ‘Ananda’. It is simply the Romanized form.

Ānanda (Pali and Sanskrit: आनन्द)

I believe that @sumants is arguing that it should be transliterated as “Anand.”

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I see. That may be the Hindi form.

Thats right, its clear for everyone who has learned this from subcontinent, though its hard to convince those who don’ t understand beyond latin or english script, to read better for reference https://davidya.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Sanskrit-Devanagari.pdf

On Suttacentral when you change script to Devnagri its clear what I am asking for and right meaning

Sanskrit       Should be                               Currently is

बुद्ध                Buddh                                       Buddha

धर्म                 Dharm                                       Dharma

संघ                 Sangh                                         Sangha

दंड                 danḍ                                           daṇḍa
                       Punish or Punishment       Rod, Stick, Violence (all incorrect)

डंडा               ḍanḍā                                       daṇḍa (notice the first letter its sound is different from above)
                                                                            which is Stick, or rod (Violence is incorrect)

A Rod or stick can be used to punish someone or create violence though that itself is not a punishment, while punishment has greater meaning and can be given without a rod or stick as well like मृत्युदंड Death Penalty or Punishment, where there is no stick involved.

From this I get the feeling it should be Buddhah, Dhammah, Sanghah, Dukkhah, etc.?

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OK I see what you’re saying here. Someone made a translation decision to render daṇḍa as दंड in Devanagri, correct? It’s not the other way around – we didn’t start with दंड to get to daṇḍa.

Unless I’m missing something obvious.

Correct its the other way looking at latin and doing translation will miss this point which appears apparent in this case

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When was the Devanagari script first used to write Pali and Sanskrit?

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I am not sure when script was first used, its like when ignorance was first created there is no starting point and its not relevant here, are you debating here that these two words below have same meaning?

I am saying that since the Devanagari system of writing was created perhaps 1000 years after the Buddha lived, things written in it today can’t necessarily be a reliable indicator of how he spoke.

(Neither Pāli nor Vedic Sanskrit had any writing.)

Perhaps we are speaking past one another, it seems akin to saying that since today we call Chaucer’s story “The Tale of the Wife of Bath”, Chaucer’s own spelling “The Tale of the Wyf of Bathe” is not possible.

I see. Coming to intent of this topic of discussion was to help English speakers properly understand the meaning as native speakers do. There are enough examples provided here to explain the context. If community feels confident in understanding punishment as rod as in this example, and many more they are welcome to mis-represent.
This is something not 1000 years ago though here and now native speakers know, and can’t stand the translation of punishment as rod or stick or violence. I will rest my argument here.

:pray: may people get the true taste of dhamma

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I look forward to meeting a Pali native speaker one day.
(Because I am a native English speaker, should I then be able to read and understand Beowulf?)

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