Thank you for sharing this Sutta AN 3.40
I didn’t know this sutta
not yet translated to portuguese
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First the beginning practitioner is governed by self, then in the intermediate stage they are guided by devas. When samadhi is developed some degree of higher powers are inevitable including the penetration of minds.
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The question seems relevant to the notion of Dhammapala Dhammapala (Dhamma protector-deity) in Theravada traditions - Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum
But, it seems no such a idea or belief of Dhammapala found or developed in Theravada traditions, suttas or in EBTs?
It will be good to see any suttas/EBTs provide information/teachings about whether devas help us when asked.
I think to see the truth for yourself it’s very helpful to listen with the heart.
I also belief that “eyes and proofs” won’t help.
Is it not nice to have a spiritual friend along the path? Do you question him? It’s the same with spirits and devas. No proof needed. Just acceptance and gratitude:rainbow:
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Why does this forum silence the voices of Secular Buddhists?
Considering there is a forum thread about LGBT being silenced in the EBT’s, I would think the hypocrisy of silencing a Secular Buddhist for espousing his beliefs would be quite obvious to everyone… I suppose not?
Why am I allowed to answer the OP question with, “Yes, of course devas help us”, or “No, devas don’t help us because they view us as ants”… but if I ask, “what evidence do you have that devas exist?” or even say “I don’t believe in devas”, I get silenced by moderators?
How is it off-topic to ask for evidence to a claim?
Are Secular Buddhists not allowed to express an opinion on this forum?
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The years Mae Chee Kaew spent living at Phu Gao Mountain were a fruitful time for her meditation practice. With each new foray into the invisible world of sentient spirits, she gained increased expertise in the realms of nonphysical existence. With Ajaan Khamphan’s assistance, she strengthened her ability to explore varieties of phenomena within the many lowly but subtle nonhuman states of existence that lay beyond the range of normal human perception. These experiences were so many, and varied, that she never tired of exploring the spiritual universe. To her surprise, she discovered that some types of ghosts live in organized communities just as humans do. Contrasting sharply with the vagrant variety, these communities are governed by a leader, who supervises social activities and endeavors to keep peace. Due to the untimely fruition of previous bad kamma, some beings, having accumulated a wealth of virtue, are nonetheless reborn into the realm of ghosts. Because their virtuous characters remain, they are able to exercise great moral authority, garnering respect from their peers, who because of their own spiritual poverty, stand in awe of those possessing moral power and authority. In the ghost communities, Mae Chee Kaew found proof that the fruits of goodness were Always more powerful than the effects of evil. By the power of virtue alone, one individual is capable of governing a large community.
Mae Chee Kaew also found that the ghost communities were not segregated into groups or castes. Instead, their social hierarchy adhered strictly to the order dictated by the specific consequences of each ghost’s kamma, making it impossible for them to hold the kind of prejudices that people do. The nature of their ghostly existence, and their social status relative to one another, was always the appropriate retribution for their past misdeeds.
Occasionally, the chief ghost guided Mae Chee Kaew on a tour of his domain, and described the living conditions of different types of ghosts. She was informed that the ghost world has its share of hooligans, too. Bad characters, who cause caused disturbances, were rounded up and imprisoned in an enclosure that humans would call a “jail”. He emphasized that the imprisoned ghosts were mean-hearted types, who had unduly disturbed the peace of others, and were sentenced and jailed according to the severity of their offenses. Those who behaved well, lived normal lives as far as their kamma allowed. The chief ghost reminded her that the word “ghost” is a designation given by humans. Ghosts were actually just one type of conscious life form among many others in the universe that exists according to its own karmic conditions.
Deva consciousness is another form of sentient existence governed by the laws of kamma. Mae Chee Kaew’s samādhi meditation introduced her to a rich spectrum of otherworldly experience. Sometimes her consciousness separated from her body and wandered to explore the heavenly realms, or the different levels of the brahma world. She visited the various types of subtly formed beings, called devas, who exist in a divine hierarchy of increasing subtlety and refinement — beings who have arrived at a fortunate and happy condition as a result of their good kamma. She met terrestrial devas — luminous deities dwelling in forests, groves and trees — who are born there because of their strong natural affinity to the earthly plane. Although their visible presence existed beyond the range of human senses, they were clearly visible to Mae Chee Kaew’s divine eye. She viewed them as beings of contentment whose blissful lives were often preoccupied by sensory pleasures. These enjoyments were the rightful rewards of accumulated virtue. As human beings, they had amassed a store of merit by practicing generous giving, moral restraint and meditation. It propelled them to rebirth in a spiritual heaven, where they lived a blissful existence, enjoying a variety of pleasurable sensory experiences.
Despite the devas’ virtue, their passive nature gave little chance to actively generate additional good kamma to extend their celestial stay. Therefore, once the devas exhausted their virtuous capital they could expect to be reborn into the human world, where hopefully their virtuous tendencies would allow them to replenish their supply of merit. In contrast to the ghostly spirits, who are trapped in a cycle of evil and wretched rewards, the devas enjoyed an upswing in their karmic fortunes. However, the devas do share one thing in common with all sentient beings: the burden of emotional attachments that cause them to be reborn over and over again — without any end in sight.
It’s important to understand that these realms exist as dimensions of consciousness and not as physical planes. By characterizing the celestial realms as being progressively “higher” and more refined levels of existence, and the ghostly realms as being correspondingly “lower”, the purely spiritual nature of consciousness is erroneously given a material standard. The terms “going up” and “going down” are conventional figures of speech, referring to the movement of physical bodies. These terms have very little in common with the flow of consciousness, whose subtle motion is beyond temporal comparisons. Physically moving up and down requires a deliberate exertion of effort. But when the mind gravitates to higher or lower realms of consciousness, direction is merely a metaphor and involves no effort.
**> **
> When saying that the heavens and the brahma worlds are arranged vertically in a series of realms, this should not be understood in the literal sense — such as, a house with many stories. These realms exist as dimensions of consciousness, and ascent is accomplished spiritually, by attuning the mind’s conscious flow to a subtler vibration of consciousness. They are ascended in the figurative sense, by a spiritual means: that is, by the heart which has developed this sort of capability through the practices of generosity, moral virtue and meditation. By saying that hell is “down below”, one does not mean going down, physically, into an abyss. Rather, it refers to descent by spiritual means to a spiritual destination. And those who are able to observe the heavens and the realms of hell do so by virtue of their own internal spiritual faculties.
**> **
> For those skilled in the mysteries of the samādhi, psychic communication is as normal as any other aspect of human experience. Arising from the flow of consciousness, the essential message is transmitted in the language of the heart as fully-formed ideas, which the inquiring individual understands as clearly as if they were words in conventional language. Each thought current emanates directly from the heart, and so conveys the mind’s true feelings, and precise meaning, eliminating the need for further clarification. Verbal conversation is also a medium of the heart; but its nature is such that spoken words often fail to reflect the heart’s true feelings, so mistakes are easily made in communicating its precise intent. This incongruity is eliminated by using direct heart-to-heart communication.Mae Chee Kaew - Her Journey to Spiritual Awakening and Enlightenment
Ghosts of the Mountainhttp://www.forestdhamma.org/ebooks/english/pdf/Mae_Chee_Kaew.pdf
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this year there was a competition to bring together some of the best scientific papers on life after death…
in many of these works there are experiences of many people who had contact with Angels or Devas and spirits of people who have passed away…
if that doesn’t satisfy a secular Buddhist… patience.
even so, I’m sure your opinion will be welcome on this forum…
whether agreeing, disagreeing or asking for scientific proof.
According the Oxford Dictionary, the word “secular” means “not connected with spiritual or religious matters”. In a first view it can sounds like a founamental contradiction, although in fact the contradiction can be solved by accepting the variety of human knowledge and the different spaces to be developed.
Note the arising of some disdain or complaints in these discussions and subsequent problems. This is because your present position in Buddhism is similar to flat-earthers in Science: you don’t believe in the historical background, the authority of the community, neither in rockets of other people
And that’s ok on your side because a position to accept only the personal experience is praised in the Buddhist thought. However, note in that case you should accept that the only logical solution for your requests is to build your own rocket.
Fortunately, Dhamma is not a blind faith if that’s your real demand. Inside the Buddhist sources there are tutorials to experience devas. And Buddhist rockets are free and open-source. It means you can start the enterprise when you wish.
However, be aware that there is no sense in asking others about the truth of something that you will believe only after your own personal experience. What answer do you expect exactly?. Nobody will be able to satisfy your doubt.
In order to conciliate Science and Buddhism, the person should acquire a minumum skill to change the frame of mind according contexts. In example: if you wish to be a painter, you should learn to search the beauty in colours instead wave-lenghts. There is a lot of scientific people who are painters or enjoy paintings. They do that mental switch in a very natural way. That’s possible because they avoid the obsession to drag the same type of knowledge to everywhere.
When that obsession is not present, the mind can search and experience the beauty in front a painting. This experience of Beauty is real. The painting is the same although the experience is different. So in a similar way, to experience devas the mind should be free of those contaminants impeding the experience of devas.
Imagine a future world in where all the humans would forgot the search of Beauty, and they would be only able to search wave-lengths in front a painting. In such world, the experience of Beauty would be a myth, a legend, seudoscience.
Today the search and experience of Beauty is not a myth just because this is shared by enough humans. Although maybe this will not last long as happened with the shared acceptance of devas in ancient times. Who knows
Hope it helps
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This thread ties in with a question I have spent a lot of time thinking about - about the Buddhist view on “Twelve Step” programs for addiction. I am very interested to read any comments or opinions on this.
In twelve step programs, an addict is encouraged to discover a “higher power” from which they can gain the strength necessary to stay clean, because “an addict can’t do it on their own”.
In the beginning, a higher power can be the group of fellow addicts, but eventually it becomes pretty clear that you’re supposed to find some sort of contact with some sort of supernatural entity that is aware of you and can receive prayers, and can guide you or affect you in some positive way.
Is there such an entity according to the suttas or according to Buddhist thought?
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I personally think that combat addiction and following the path has the same root. One need to see clearly that the “old way” is not working and is harmful to one.
Once one sees this clearly one starts to turn away from the old. The heart awakens and effort becomes true.
This is the time when a spirit can step in (or not) to guide. I of course don’t know why one gets sometimes help and sometimes not. But I also think that’s not important to know.
The old “I pray and you give” doesn’t work. That misses the whole point of Buddha’s teachings. We are the only one who can help ourselves and put us out of our misery.
Much strength on your path 
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this is it!!! Gassho!
I wonder what world the Brahmā Sahampati came from? From the description of the events following the Buddha’s first discourse, it seems that he came from the Brahmā world, which is 7-9 levels above the human. Mahākhandhaka 6:
"When the Buddha had set rolling the wheel of the Teaching, the earth gods cried out, “At Benares, in the deer park at Isipatana, the Buddha has set rolling the supreme wheel of the Teaching. It can’t be stopped by any monastic, brahmin, god, lord of death, supreme being, or anyone in the world.” Hearing the earth gods, the gods of the four great kings cried out … Hearing the gods of the four great kings, the Tāvatiṁsa gods cried out … the Yāma gods … the Tusita gods … the gods who delight in creation … the gods who control the creations of others … the gods of the Brahmā realm cried out, “At Benares, in the deer park at Isipatana, the Buddha has set rolling the supreme wheel of the Teaching. It can’t be stopped by any monastic, brahmin, god, lord of death, supreme being, or anyone in the world.”
“In that instant the news spread as far as the Brahmā world. Ten thousand solar systems quaked and shook. And there appeared in the world an immeasurable and glorious radiance, surpassing the splendor of the gods.”
The Brahmā Sahampati showed great compassion, insight and appreciation (SN 48.57, AN 4.21), so perhaps he came from even a higher plane - world of Anagāmis. What do the suttas say about the mental qualities of beings in the Brahmāloka?
The religious myth of the god Brahmā Sahampati initially inviting the Buddha to teach the Dhamma to the world seems very meaningful faith presented in both the Pali/EBTs and Mahayana traditions.
According to the texts, the Buddha was at first hesitant whether he should teach the Dhamma he discovered to the world after he attained enlightenment under the Bodhi tree. So, Buddhists in all traditions possibly should show respect and feel very grateful to the deva, Brahmā Sahampati, for his at first asking the Buddha to teach the Dhamma to the world!
In this religious connection, the god Brahma and his relevant devas may give protection to those who follow the Dhamma, and ask for help!?
Requesting help from devas for protection is clearly found in the Pali Paritta chanting texts, such as the mentioned (DN 32) Atanatiya Sutta, Aradhana (Invitation to Devas), and Paritta Parikamma chanting.
But usually some kinds of offering are also presented to devas in the ritual. Some Buddhist traditions offer flowers, incense, food and light candles etc. But I think, one can also offer the practice of charitable giving (dana) under the faith of Buddha-Dhamma-Sangha.
According to the sutta, as discussed above, deva can help, sometimes, in limited way.
According to later tradition, i.e. Mahayana. You can easily substitute higher supernatural entity with Buddha, many other Buddha, Bodhisattva, Tantric deities etc.
In many tradition, they acknowledge some devas as Dharma Protector. These class of being is still in samsara, but they are in higher realm and has promised to guard the Dharma.
There are rituals to call them, praying so they help eliminating obstacles and so on. And of course there are offerings, well, they are still samsaric beings after all.
There are other non-samsaric Dharma Protector but they are different kind altogether.
It reminded me of staying in a monastery in Sri Lanka. Novices placed food offering in front of the Buddha rupa, and later they took it and gave it to the local monkeys, not to waste it but share with their local animal friends. I thought that was a beautiful symbolic offering to the Buddha also.
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Yes, this makes sense in my experience of merging different sub-selfs with one’s higher being. When I take refuge, then it’s not just a recitation of words, but actually bringing myself into the right brain non-verbal thinking tissue that is boundless, and therefore connected to the whole universe, including all forms of consciousnesses, seen and unseen.
The twelve-step program has helped a lot of addicts, but keeping on confirming that one is an addict in a sangha of addicts is to be another way of conditioning. One has to take full responsibility for oneself, or else there won’t be real freedom, or in a Buddhist sense, end of suffering.
I think so too, because it’s about desire, and we are all sensual beings. And I also think that any substance or activity isn’t the main problem, the main problem is the fragmented self that seeks to become whole again.
I believe we are surrounded by helping hands, but to see this requires that one is mindfully present in all situations. Sometimes it’s a single event that reveals the case, and other times there may be a series of events leading forward, and one has to be able to interpret those correctly to experience cessations.
To really believe in something unseen doesn’t require to let go of rationality, it’s more rational to surrender to basic “I just don’t know”, and experience where this being in unknowing takes one to.
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I think in ancient times, the gods were very much personifications of human intuition, and sometimes that intuition is just inexplicable when events unfold. Karl Jung called it synchronicity. Rational, logical people will of course say it’s a coincidence given meaning by the mind making patterns whether they exist or not, which is fine I suppose, though I think it wrecks the magic of life. Myself, I try not to think about it. I just wonder a while and go on. But in ancient times, that sometimes explained it as a communication from outside, like a god whispering in their ears. In Buddhist writings, people often ask the Buddha if he knows something by his own powers of discernment or if a god came and told him. It sounds very prosaic taken literally, but I think it really referred to this type of intuition that comes unbidden and turns out to be significant.
Just this weekend I had a case of this take place. I have a subscription to a national newspaper, the Sunday edition, which I have mainly because I want access to their website. So, I am forever putting the print copy on vacation hold, which they happily allow me to do. Once or twice a year, though, I forget to extend the hold on the delivery of the paper, and it arrives on a Sunday morning. Normally, I would toss it; no interest in reading what passes for news these days. Not enough to wade through ads and contemporary buzzwords and such.
This Sunday, however, a paper arrived again, and I thought, “Oh, I forgot to suspend it again. Hmm, you know, I think I’ll read it. For some reason, it seems like I should do that.”
Well, long story a little shorted, inside this paper was a slick newszine full of gaudy luxury ads and such that the newspaper publishes with the Sunday edition. (I cannot express enough what an utter culture clash it is for me to look at the ads, being a working-class fellow through and through, from cradle to grave most likely.) But on the cover is a picture of a scene from the anime film Totoro. I’m not much of a fan by nature, but I’m a fan of Hayao Myazaki, who is to me a sort of modern-day sage who manages that mysterious victory of being popular and liked by the public. It turns out that one of the writers of the newszine managed to get a very rare interview with Myazaki (who dislikes the media in general and western media in particular) and wrote a lengthy piece about Studio Ghibli.
Now, why on earth did I decide to read this paper instead of tossing it, and then as a result discover this little prize that I would have missed otherwise. It wasn’t that a god actually spoke to me and said, “Charlie, you have got to read that paper.” But I knew for some reason that reading it was a good idea.
So, that’s one of those purpose gods had for ancient people. They explained things that aren’t explainable, whether it was the vagaries of the weather or little events in their lives. So, naturally, they did all they could to keep those gods happy. Who knows how an angry could make life unfortunate rather than fortunate?
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That’s a great story, Charlie, thank you for sharing it. And I share your love of Miyazaki!
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Thank you kindly, Luis! I greatly appreciate being here.