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EBTs on sensuality

defilements
kama
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#21

This is a gradual path and we must not expect ourselves to be like arahanths from day #1.

with metta


#22

I meant that sometimes attachment to food and luxuries is brushed aside as trivial things when instead they should be seen as fetters too. I should have added a ‘sarcasm’ or ‘irony’ tag to the earlier comment, sorry. :slight_smile:


#23

from the BMC intro, this probably parajika #1

Even when these conditions did arise, though, the Buddha did not set out a full code at once. Instead, he formulated rules one at a time in response to events. The considerations that went into formulating each rule are best illustrated by the events surrounding the formulation of the first.

Ven. Sudinna, the story goes, had strong faith in the Buddha and had ordained after receiving his parents’ grudging consent. He was their only child and, though married, was childless. His parents, fearing that the government would confiscate their property at their death if it had no heir, devised various schemes to lure Ven. Sudinna back to the lay life, but to no avail. Finally, his mother realized that he was firm in his intention to stay a bhikkhu and so asked him at least to have intercourse with his former wife so that their property would have an heir. Ven. Sudinna consented, took his wife into the forest, and had intercourse three times.

Immediately he felt remorse and eventually confessed his deed to his fellow bhikkhus. Word reached the Buddha, who called a meeting of the Community, questioned Ven. Sudinna, and gave him a rebuke. The rebuke fell into two major parts. In the first part, the Buddha reminded Ven. Sudinna of his position as a samaṇa—a monk or contemplative—and that his behavior was unworthy of his position. Also, the Buddha pointed out to him the aims of the teaching and noted that his behavior ran counter to them. The implication here was that Ven. Sudinna had not only acted inconsistently with the content of the teaching, but had also shown callous disregard for the Buddha’s compassionate aims in making the Dhamma known.

“‘Worthless man, it is unseemly, out of line, unsuitable, and unworthy of a contemplative; improper and not to be done…. Haven’t I taught the Dhamma in many ways for the sake of dispassion and not for passion; for unfettering and not for fettering; for freedom from clinging and not for clinging? Yet here, while I have taught the Dhamma for dispassion, you set your heart on passion; while I have taught the Dhamma for unfettering, you set your heart on being fettered; while I have taught the Dhamma for freedom from clinging, you set your heart on clinging.

“‘Worthless man, haven’t I taught the Dhamma in many ways for the fading of passion, the sobering of intoxication, the subduing of thirst, the destruction of attachment, the severing of the round, the ending of craving, dispassion, cessation, unbinding? Haven’t I in many ways advocated abandoning sensual pleasures, comprehending sensual perceptions, subduing sensual thirst, destroying sensual thoughts, calming sensual fevers? Worthless man, it would be better that your penis be stuck into the mouth of a poisonous snake than into a woman’s vagina. It would be better that your penis be stuck into the mouth of a black viper than into a woman’s vagina. It would be better that your penis be stuck into a pit of burning embers, blazing and glowing, than into a woman’s vagina. Why is that? For that reason you would undergo death or death-like suffering, but you would not on that account, at the break-up of the body, after death, fall into a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell. But for this reason you would, at the break-up of the body, after death, fall into a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell….

“‘Worthless man, this neither inspires faith in the faithless nor increases the faithful. Rather, it inspires lack of faith in the faithless and wavering in some of the faithful.’”

The second part of the rebuke dealt in terms of personal qualities: those that a bhikkhu practicing discipline is to abandon, and those he is to develop.

“Then the Blessed One, having in many ways rebuked Ven. Sudinna, having spoken in dispraise of being burdensome, demanding, arrogant, discontented, entangled, and indolent; in various ways having spoken in praise of being unburdensome, undemanding, modest, content, scrupulous, austere, gracious, self-effacing, and energetic; having given a Dhamma talk on what is seemly and becoming for bhikkhus, addressed the bhikkhus.”

This was where the Buddha formulated the training rule, after first stating his reasons for doing so.

“‘In that case, bhikkhus, I will formulate a training rule for the bhikkhus with ten aims in mind: the excellence of the Community, the comfort of the Community, the curbing of the impudent, the comfort of well-behaved bhikkhus, the restraint of effluents related to the present life, the prevention of effluents related to the next life, the arousing of faith in the faithless, the increase of the faithful, the establishment of the true Dhamma, and the fostering of discipline.’”


#24

—I thought: ‘Why don’t I meditate by continually dividing my thoughts into two classes?’ So I assigned sensual, malicious, and cruel thoughts to one class. And I assigned thoughts of renunciation, love, and kindness to the second class. SuttaCentral MN19

The habitual nature of sensual thoughts needs some intentional work to cease.


#25

Hi Frank I have been trying to message you, about some of the lists you have(all and any of them)…can you share them with me?


#26

Unfortunately, I don’t think Frank is here anymore with us.

Not dead, just not “here”.

Maybe I’m wrong?


#27

If this sticky, uncouth craving
overcomes you in the world,
your sorrows grow like wild grass
after rain.

If, in the world, you overcome
this uncouth craving, hard to escape,
sorrows roll off you,
like water beads off
a lotus.

— Dhp 335-336

If its root remains
undamaged & strong,
a tree, even if cut,
will grow back.
So too if latent craving
is not rooted out,
this suffering returns
again
&
again.

— Dhp 338


#28

Frankk participates in the Dhammawheel Pali forum, and can be reached there.


#29

“Bhikkhus, in regard to forms cognizable by the eye, if in any bhikkhu or bhikkhunī lust still exists and has not been abandoned, if hatred still exists and has not been abandoned, if delusion still exists and has not been abandoned, then even trifling forms that enter into range of the eye obsess the mind, not to speak of those that are prominent. For what reason? Because lust still exists and has not been abandoned, hatred still exists and has not been abandoned, delusion still exists and has not been abandoned. The same in regard to sounds cognizable by the ear … mental phenomena cognizable by the mind. SN 35.231: The Milk-Sap Tree (English) - Saḷāyatana Saṃyutta - SuttaCentral


#30
  1. SENSUAL PLEASURES [766–771]

If when a man is lusting for a sensual pleasure he succeeds in [getting] it,
all joyful indeed he becomes
having got what he wanted.

If while a person is lusting
and full of desire
those sensual pleasures fall away from him he gets afflicted as if pierced by a barb.

Whoever avoids sensual pleasures
as if the head of a snake with his foot, the sticky nature of the world
he mindfully passes over.

Fields and land, or gold,
cows and horses, slaves and servants,
women and relations, various sensual pleasures, if for these a man has greed,

they, though being powerless, overpower him. His surroundings crush him.
Then misery enters into him
like water into a broken boat.

Therefore a person always mindful
should avoid sensual pleasures.
Having abandoned them he would cross the flood
like one who has gone to the far shore after bailing out the boat.

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/uploads/default/original/2X/c/c007edeb1919ae78b69d4a71c96dfa19dc49c69d.pdf


#31

The context here seems to support the idea that ‘sensual pleasures’ can refer to the objects of sensuality, no?

I.e. here it seems sensual pleasures refer basically to what we would call ‘material wealth’, which I think makes for an interesting reading.

Of course, ‘sensuality’ could still take on the meaning of the psychological pleasure of the five senses or the objects of the five senses depending on context.


#32

Sense pleasures are the pleasure of the five senses, enjoyed by the mind.

Rupa (form) cannot feel itself- it requires feeling, identification, intention, consciousness (that is, mental aggregates) to experience it, if we are to discuss it at a conventional level.

‘Pleasure not of the senses’ is mind made, as the bliss of samadhi/jhana, and is also experienced by the mind though it is observed as an ‘over-lay’ on the mind and body sensations.


#33

It’s the over-lay of bliss that’s experienced in jhanic fine-material (rupa) realms and when ‘breathing with bliss’ etc. as per the Anapanasati sutta. MN118


#34

"Once, monks, there was a teacher named Araka, a sectarian leader who was free of passion for sensual pleasures. He had many hundreds of students and he taught them the Dhamma in this way: 'Next to nothing, brahmans, is the life of human beings — limited, trifling, of much stress & many despairs. One should touch this [truth] like a sage, do what is skillful, follow the holy life. For one who is born there is no freedom from death.

"'Just as a dewdrop on the tip of a blade of grass quickly vanishes with the rising of the sun and does not stay long, in the same way, brahmans, the life of human beings is like a dewdrop — limited, trifling, of much stress & many despairs. One should touch this [truth] like a sage, do what is skillful, follow the holy life. For one who is born there is no freedom from death.

"'Just as when the rain-devas send rain in fat drops, and a bubble on the water quickly vanishes and does not stay long, in the same way, brahmans, the life of human beings is like a water bubble — limited, trifling, of much stress & many despairs. One should touch this [truth] like a sage, do what is skillful, follow the holy life. For one who is born there is no freedom from death.

"'Just as a line drawn in the water with a stick quickly vanishes and does not stay long, in the same way, brahmans, the life of human beings is like a line drawn in the water with a stick — limited, trifling, of much stress & many despairs. One should touch this [truth] like a sage, do what is skillful, follow the holy life. For one who is born there is no freedom from death.

[Favorite section bolded]

"'Just as a river flowing down from the mountains, going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it, so that there is not a moment, an instant, a second where it stands still, but instead it goes & rushes & flows, in the same way, brahmans, the life of human beings is like a river flowing down from the mountains — limited, trifling, of much stress & many despairs. One should touch this [truth] like a sage, do what is skillful, follow the holy life. For one who is born there is no freedom from death.

"'Just as a strong man forming a drop of spit on the tip of his tongue would spit it out with little effort, in the same way, brahmans, the life of human beings is like a drop of spit — limited, trifling, of much stress & many despairs. One should touch this [truth] like a sage, do what is skillful, follow the holy life. For one who is born there is no freedom from death.

"'Just as a sliver of meat thrown into an iron pan heated all day quickly vanishes and does not stay long, in the same way, brahmans, the life of human beings is like a sliver of meat — limited, trifling, of much stress & many despairs. One should touch this [truth] like a sage, do what is skillful, follow the holy life. For one who is born there is no freedom from death.

"‘Just as a cow to be slaughtered being led to the slaughterhouse, with every step of its foot closer to its slaughtering, closer to death, in the same way, brahmans, the life of human beings is like a cow to be slaughtered — limited, trifling, of much stress & many despairs. One should touch this [truth] like a sage, do what is skillful, follow the holy life. For one who is born there is no freedom from death.’

"Now at that time, monks, the human life span was 60,000 years, with girls marriageable at 500. And at that time there were [only] six afflictions: cold, heat, hunger, thirst, defecation, & urination. Yet even though people were so long-lived, long-lasting, with so few afflictions, that teacher Araka taught the Dhamma to his disciples in this way: ‘Next to nothing, brahmans, is the life of human beings — limited, trifling, of much stress & many despairs. One should touch this [truth] like a sage, do what is skillful, follow the holy life. For one who is born there is no freedom from death.’

"At present, monks, one speaking rightly would say, 'Next to nothing is the life of human beings — limited, trifling, of much stress & many despairs. One should touch this [truth] like a sage, do what is skillful, follow the holy life. - AN7.70


#35

Beauty is in the eye of the lustful.
Things in the world may be of good or bad quality but it is our intended attraction to things which make them attractive. The more a person wants a thing, the more attractive that thing becomes or the more a person ASSUMES that he can get pleasure from a thing, the more attractive the thing becomes.
A thing is beautiful or sensual to the extent of ones desires toward it.
Therefore if one’s lustful intentions are renounced, to that extent, the ‘beauty’ of a thing will fade accordingly, however, the quality of a thing will remain as it always was.
So in that sense, one with no lustful intentions will no longer see things as beautiful or ugly but only as they are I.e good or bad quality.

In the following verse citrani is usually translated as beautiful, which means that things are truly beautiful(attractive by nature), but things by nature are not attractive or unattractive, they are just things of a certain quality which either one desires or not, the desire is in regard to things, not the things themselves. Beauty or Ugliness is an assumption based on craving for a sense object.

SN1.34
"The world’s various things aren’t sensual pleasures.
“Na te kāmā yāni citrāni loke,

Greedy intention is a person’s sensual pleasure.
Saṅkapparāgo purisassa kāmo;

The world’s various things stay just as they are,
Tiṭṭhanti citrāni tatheva loke,

but a wise one removes desire for them.
Athettha dhīrā vinayanti chandaṃ."

This description of sensual pleasures here can also give an indication on what it means to be ‘quite secluded from sensual pleasures’ in jhana I.e rather than blocking out sense objects, one instead stops intending or thinking lustfully towards objects of the senses until that attitude of non-wanting becomes steady or until one understands that it is on account of MY wanting of assumed pleasures from senses that I am NOT secluded from sensual pleasures.