Forget "mindfulness". remembering = sati / smṛti / 念

[Gabriel]

I agree with @frankk, the translation of sati is worth correcting. Just look at how misleading the whole contemporary ‘mindfulness’ hype is - partly through the current translation and appropriation of sati.

Words are not meaningless. We practitioners depend on the unconscious supporting our efforts in meditation, and the unconscious is deeply connected with semantic fields. So it matters how we translate core concepts - and I think that’s why we struggle here for a right understanding and translation.

Now how to press into one or two words “pulling-out-from-memory-a-dhamma-aspect-and-keeping-it-in-mind-continuously-in-order-to-change-the-nature-of-our-consciousness”?

Any attempt can only be an approximation, but it’s worth the struggle. I don’t think that an artificial word will catch on in the wider public, but I also agree that the memory aspect is understated in our current discourse. I think from the above attempts I would prefer ‘recollection’ or ‘recollecting mindfulness’. From the neologisms I would also go for ‘remindfulness’.

[frankk]

Evaluating the merits and demerits of some words similar to “remember-ness”:

“retentiveness”

1. It’s an existing English word, synonymous with being good at memorizing.
2. It implies, but doesn’t explicitly and clearly involve the two-way skill in memory as “remember” does.
3. problem with “retentive” is it can mean other things than working with memory, such as “soil retentive of water”.

"recollectiveness"
Same pros and cons as “retentiveness”, just that this “one way” memory access is in the recollection and not the memorization.

“remember” (verb) = two way memory access: memorize + recollect
remembrance (noun) = The ability to recall past occurrences
remembrancer (noun) |ri’mem-brun-sur| One who, or that which, serves to bring to, or keep in, mind; a memento; a memorial; a reminder

Derived forms not in dictionary yet as of CE 2018
remember-ization (noun) = two way memory access: memorization + recollection.
remember-ful (adj.) = one who embodies the qualities of remember-ization. One is good at “memorizing”, and good at “recollecting”.
remember-ness (noun) = alternative to remember-ization.
remember-fication (noun) = alternative to remember-ization. The fabrication of the skills of remembering.
remember-fully, remember-ly (adv.)

pros and cons of “remember” and its derivations
"remember" is a simpler word, that a child understands. “retentive” and “recollective” not so much.

Why “remember-ization” is better than “remembrance”
“remembrance” sounds like a memorial speech at a funeral.
“remember-ization” is a dynamic two way memory worker, like “remember”, it makes memories and it recalls memories. Sati/smrti is an essential aspect of the oral tradition, and we want to emphasize the development of those dynamic skills. Remember-ization practiced properly leads to realization. Mindfulness being non-judgemental and choiceless awareness is the condition of zombies and vegetables. Recall General “Sati”, the gatekeeper of the fortress (AN 7.67) and Cook “Sati” (SN 47.8) trying to cook his way into 4 jhānas. They are not only choosy and judgemental, they are the complete opposite of the modern “mindfulness” understanding. They absolutely depend on two way memory skill. Sammā Sati is “right remember-fication” and “right remember-ization.”

Sati is memory.
memory is a product of memorization and recollection.
In the oral tradition, in that tradition’s way of learning and teaching, memory requires constant refreshment, via re-memorization and recollection, in order to stay accurate and accessible. As well as modifying, updating our memory as our understanding of Dhamma deepens. Working with memory is an essential skill, and those injunctions to develop memory skills need to be explicit and frequent. The word “sati” appears frequently in the EBT, and it needs to retain that meaning of “memory” and “working with memory”.

This practice is about Nirvana and using words in the most effective way to liberation. It’s not about stuffing yourself in a box and following rules and conventions so you can have tea with the Queen and speak the Queen’s English properly. Sammā Sati is “right remember-fication” and “right remember-ization.” Strategically placed hyphens means people will know what those words mean when they see it used.

[Kalia]

This practice is about Nirvana and using words in the most effective way to liberation. It’s not about stuffing yourself in a box and following rules and conventions so you can have tea with the Queen and speak the Queen’s English properly. Sammā Sati is “right remember-fication” and “right remember-ization.” Strategically placed hyphens means people will know what those words mean when they see it used.

Sure, we all have our opinions on the internet.

Personally I find less is more, as far as needing a lot of words to do my practice effectively is concerned… and unfamiliar ways of using them is just an unnecessary distraction.

Be well and happy.

[Mat]

I think Pali words are broad-brush and depending on the context we should render sati as either mindfulness or remembering, without feeling forced to squeeze two meanings into a single word.

With metta

[frankk]

We have a new winner. Sati = remembering.
So I don’t have to use a neologism such as “remember-ness” or “rememberization” for sati. “remembering” is a synonym of “memory”, which is the undisputed meaning of sati. But unlike “memory”, which is passive, “remembering” implies an active dynamic process to “remember”, which is constantly modifying memory, or recalling, or re-writing memory.

Reading through different dictionary entries for “remember” the past couple of hours,
merriam webster is top of the search results in google, I also read through oxford, cambridge american, cambridge british, dictonary.com, and some others.

1. “remember” is two way memory access. All the dictionaries list the ability to recall, to “remember” something from the past as the primary, #1 definition.

2. “remember” as retention, the ability to retain something, to memorize something, is usually listed as #2.

3. Some dictionaries also list the ability to be attentive and focus on an important task , not to forget it, as a meaning for “remember”.

This entry was pretty good, and seems to match very well sati, satipatthana in EBT:

re·mem·ber (merriam-webster student dictionary)
function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -bered; remem·ber·ing
1 : to bring to mind or think of again
2 a : to keep in mind for attention
b : 1REWARD 1
3 : to keep in the memory
4 : to pass along greetings from

• re·mem·ber·able /-b(schwa-)rschwa-bschwal/ adjective
• re·mem·ber·er /-bschwar-schwar/ noun

Happily, “remembering” according to wordweb is a synonym for “memory”, so we have a perfect match for “sati”.

Under the origin and etymology for “remember” in oxford dict., we see

Middle English: from Old French remembrer, from late Latin rememorari ‘call to mind’, from re- (expressing intensive force) + Latin memor ‘mindful’.

In old times, ‘mindful’ meant “remember”, so “mindfulness” is really an excellent translation. Unfortunately it’s modern meaning is corrupted. The “mindfulness” ship be sinking, so it’s time to bail out.

I also love how the “re-” in “remember” means

re- (expressing intensive force)

So the process of sati, “re-membering”, is a dynamic “intensive force” (of right view, right effort) shaping the memory in a productive way, recalling, retaining as needed to modify our memory of Dhamma to work properly.

4 satipatthana = sati + upatthana, = establishing the four rememberings, the four important ways to help shape memory productively.

[alaber]

Because of the un-agreed definition and current misuse of the word mindfulness I prefer to leave sati untranslated or to use the simple word that everybody understands : attention.
Attention implicitly contains the memory/remembering aspect plus the staying in the present moment aspect. I always wondered why the neologism mindfulness was invented in the 1st place while attention is a natural translation.

[anon35250929]

On the other hand, if something like "memory " translates sati, I can imagine the confusion leaning towards believing that all the sati exercises are exercises of memorization, that the sati factor is equivalent to something like eidetic memory. That the 4sp is a practice to fulfill this ability (!).

[Mat]

@anon35250929

I can imagine the confusion leaning towards believing that all the sati exercises are exercises of memorization,

lol -that would be a disaster!

with metta

[Nibbanka]

@frankk

I think one of the reasons “mindfulness” was coined in the first place is because it fits grammatical cases well in the EBT contexts it’s used in, whereas ‘memory’, ‘retention’, is harder to decline/conjugate.

When “mindfulness” was coined, it was close to “keeping in mind”. Thomas Rhys-Davids must have been weell familiar with the Bible (Psalm 8:4) verse:

“What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.”

and a passage from popular Anglican prayer:

“Give us grateful hearts, our Father,
for all thy [your] mercies,
and make us mindful of the needs of others;
through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.”

https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4299&p=183131#p183131

It was only much later that the meaning of this term underwent a semantic shift, spearheaded by Ven. Nyanaponika.

Ven. Thanissaro still attempts to return ‘mindfulness’ to its original meaning, but it seems too late. The term is hijacked and exploited by powerful forces, - first of all, simplicity appeal, - so new terms must be used to convey the original meaning.

[Nibbanka]

@frankk

I’m guessing the person who coined “mindfulness” was trying to fit the context of sati in the sense of “presence of mind”, which works for most EBT occurrences.

I’ve researched this topic, and have not found a single occurence of “sati” in the sense of “presence of mind”.

[frankk]

@Nibbanka

https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4299&p=183131#p183131

Nice thread. What translation would you use for “sati” across all derived forms? It looks like the preferred terms for the OP was “memory” and “remembrance”.

In sati indriya definition, I use “rememberful” (not a word in the dictionary) for “satima”, I wonder if “rememberer” (is in the dictionary) would work for satima or sato (instead of mindful/rememberful)?

SN 48.9 Sati-indriya: Remembering-faculty

♦ “katamañ-ca, bhikkhave, sat-indriyaṃ?	"{And}-what, monks, (is the) remembering-faculty?
idha, bhikkhave, ariya-sāvako	Here, monks, (a) disciple-of-the-noble-ones,
satimā hoti	{is} remember-ful,
paramena sati-nepakkena samannāgato	supreme remembering-(and)-prudence (he) possesses,
cira-katampi cira-bhāsitampi	(what was) {done}-long-ago, {spoken}-long-ago,
saritā anussaritā —	(he) remembers (and) recollects -
idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, sat-indriyaṃ.	this (is) called, *********, remembering-faculty.

[Nibbanka]

@frankk

What translation would you use for “sati” across all derived forms? It looks like the preferred terms for the OP was “memory” and “remembrance”.

I’m not a native English speaker, so I don’t insist on a particular translation. Any option like “keeping in mind, retention, remembrance”, etc. works fine for me.

Perhaps “retentive”, as an adjective, would convey well the meaning of adjective “satimā”?