Friendship: the whole of the holy life?

Most of mine are online too. I’m just differentiating between those who I would share intimate practice stuff with and people I would discuss suttas etc with. There’s benefits in both.

I always say I’m an internet Buddhist when people ask how I found the Dhamma.

Right now my closest Dhamma-sister is on the other side of the world and I’m so greatful for the magic of WhatsApp!

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Yes, it is great when there is the entire (on-line) world to choose from, when it comes to friends.

I had this really unusual thought- is it possible to ordain someone, on-line? It is rather off topic, but…

with metta

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Probably. Plenty will fly to Asia just to be ordained. However, in my mind you should live with your teacher and spiritual community to absorb all their good qualities (and to learn about your kilesa)


Back on topic

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Absolutely. ‘Interviews’ cannot beat real life feedback by a community of peers, who have one’s best interests at heart. Sometimes we are not fully aware of the extent of our own defilements- hence the need for external KMs. KMs are supposed to be the single most important external factor, for enlightenment, the single most important internal factor being yonisomanasikara (best translated as ‘wise contemplation’).

with metta

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I don’t know, but are you referring to a parallel in Christianity like the good shepherd/good samaritan? Well he is the good friend, but obviously he acts in mysterious ways, through other people and the dhamma as well :wink:

with metta,

Yes, I think this is quite true and it certainly can be helpful to have someone to kindly point out our shortcomings in a way we are able to receive (as per MN103). However, roughly speaking, what I’ve noticed is that the frictions of life are already quite good at bringing one’s poor qualities to the surface, and where a good friend has an extraordinary gift to offer is in being able to point out our wholesome qualities the we ourselves don’t easily recognise - hence the need for external KMs.

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I think this is the Mudita aspect of the KMs.
They also possess Metta, Karuna, and Upekkha.

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I also think we mirror the people we around to some extent. I’ve certainly picked up more than a few Sri Lankan and Singaporean habits in this last year!

I know with the monastics I have lived with I step-up to their level of conduct. If we hang with akusala friends we are eventually brought down by them.

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AN 125-6:

“Monks, there are these two conditions for the arising of wrong view. Which two? The voice of another and inappropriate attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of wrong view.”

“Monks, there are these two conditions for the arising of right view. Which two? The voice of another and appropriate attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of right view.”

Maybe, as a simple summary, we could say that a good friend is someone with whom one can discuss & practice appropriate attention.

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Slightly off topic - but I think its worth noting that the majority of Buddhist practitioners these days are lay people rather than “monks”. If one lives within a monastic community Its probably a whole lot easier to find a “spiritual friend” than it is in lay life.

Additionally, sometimes advice given to monastics in the suttas is a little too austere for the average layperson with a job and family. The subject of another topic, perhaps?

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Well, there’s this:

https://suttacentral.net/en/an8.54

“We are lay people enjoying sensuality; living crowded with spouses & children; using Kasi fabrics & sandalwood; wearing garlands, scents, & creams; handling gold & silver. May the Blessed One teach the Dhamma for those like us, for our happiness & well-being in this life, for our happiness & well-being in lives to come.”


This Sutta has an odd progression; it looks like two Suttas kinda shoved together, but I’m sure that’s just my brain acting up again:

[The Blessed One said:] “There are these four qualities, TigerPaw, that lead to a lay person’s happiness and well-being in this life. Which four? Being consummate in initiative, being consummate in vigilance, admirable friendship, and maintaining one’s livelihood in tune.

…“And what is meant by admirable friendship? There is the case where a lay person, in whatever town or village he may dwell, spends time with householders or householders’ sons, young or old, who are advanced in virtue. He talks with them, engages them in discussions. He emulates consummate conviction in those who are consummate in conviction, consummate virtue in those who are consummate in virtue, consummate generosity in those who are consummate in generosity, and consummate discernment in those who are consummate in discernment. This is called admirable friendship.

…“There are these four qualities that lead to a lay person’s happiness and well-being in lives to come. Which four? Being consummate in conviction, being consummate in virtue, being consummate in generosity, being consummate in discernment.


Good friends are simply practicing (lay) Buddhists, with one eye on the present & one eye on the future. It doesn’t seem very complicated to me.

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This sutta is good for non-ordained in that it speaks of material and spiritual development in balance. Stream entry was the most common attainment among the layity- the consummate in discernment ('knowledge of co-arising and cessation, samudaya and nirodha) is the knowledge the stream entrant posses. He’s saying however well off as a layperson you can still endevour to reach stream entry. Later commentators have said that stream entry is the best balance between samasara and nibbana. Stream entry guarantees reaching full enlightenment eventually, like a punctured tire slowly letting out air.

with metta,

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…well, since thinking of oneself as Noble can result in laziness (e.g. AN 9.12), and since people can be wrong about their being Noble & since they should practice the same no matter whether they’re Noble or not (e.g. AN 10.86, iirc), stream-entry really isn’t a helpful idea.

Ideally, yes, …but it doesn’t always work out that way. I found in the first tradition I was involved with, other people only wanted to be friendly if one regarded the teachers as godlike entities, and in the second, there weren’t really any opportunities to get to know other lay people.

As for the internet … its not very reliable. People I’ve thought might be my “spiritual” friends have been very changeable, due to impermanence I guess.

The Rhinoceros Sutta remains my closest internet friend at the moment!

I do have some good friends in “meat space” around the world who aren’t Buddhists though.

Have a good Xmas holiday everyone.

:rhinoceros:

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I agree. Without good friends in this Buddhist sense, one should take one’s practice into a solitary space while keeping in mind Ud 4.1, the Meghiyasutta which sabbamitta mentioned above.

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Hence the Buddha proclaiming it only at the point of death, in many case- except when the person is wise, according to the text.

Yet, he changed this teaching later in the Mahaparinibbana sutta when he gave a method for everyone to determine this for themselves … according to each person’s capability.

Of course- but Bhikkhus were making mistakes while on the rains season with the Buddha himself -and proclaiming they were arahanths when they weren’t.

Stream entry has been praised by the Buddha many times to his monks, in many suttas. I think if I’m not mistaken it is the most praised of all the attainments, including jhana.

Sole dominion over the earth,
going to heaven,
lordship over all worlds:
the fruit of stream-entry
excels them. Dhp 178

Also SN55.1, SN13.1, SN13.2, SN13.8.

Stream entry is that gateway to unlock the rest of the path.

with metta

See the sequence of the stanzas:

Association with people of integrity is a factor for stream-entry.
Listening to the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry.
Appropriate attention is a factor for stream-entry.
Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry.
— SN 55.5

with metta

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True- there was a sutta (cant seem to find it now) where all the wise student bhikkhus were drawn to Ven Sariputta, all the learned ones were drawn to Ven Ananda etc and all the ones with many defilments were drawn to Ven Devadatta. I think the Buddha notices this and may have been the first to say essentially that ‘birds of a feather flock together’.

with metta

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Stream entry is that gateway to unlock the rest of the path.

Even so, if one develops an obsession about getting “attainments” its just another form of craving to let go of.

It can cause laziness, it can be an overestimation, and it doesn’t change the way one practices. In the context of this thread, we can say that even if one’s good friends are Nobles, one’s own appropriate attention is the thing that allows the possibility of Right View, not the attainments of others.

Stream entry is an idea with no useful application. Here, it’s enough to say that good friendship is not defined with reference to it.