Ayya, I have a question about age limits. There is a nun in the texts named Sona Theri who was not taken care of by her children, who were ungrateful, and as a result she ordained as a nun, when she was 80 or 90. In the end she managed to attain arahantship while contemplating the flowers, how they start out young, fresh and beautiful, but they eventually wither and die, - just like her.
My question is, if it was okay to ordain an 80 year old woman in the time of the Buddha, why isn’t it okay today? Why do a lot of monasteries have an upper age limit? Isn’t it not very compassionate to deny someone ordination based on a characteristic they can not change, such as age? What are your thoughts on that?
Most western monasteries have a very hard time financially. Unless you have a famous superstar monk such as Ajahn Brahm, it’s tough to keep your monastery going. Having a larger monastic community is very expensive, so sanghas need to be careful how many people they take in. There is also the general experience that it can be tough to train older people, and to integrate them into a community. Resources are limited and teachers have many duties already. Older people also on average have higher expenses for health care etc. and often can’t live quite as simply as younger people. Aspirants also have many duties and work a lot, so people need to be fit and strong enough. Of course, this depends very much on each individual person, so this can vary from aspirant to aspirant.
Since places are so limited, monasteries need to prioritize younger people to ensure that the dhamma is passed on to the next generation, and the monastery remains viable.
Another issue is that visas are hard to get for monastics. Many visas also have age limits, so foreign aspirants often need to be quite young to be eligible.
So ideally, we could ordain everyone who wishes to ordain, but conditions are not supportive right now. Some older people therefore choose to take ordination in Asia and keep living at home in their own private “monastery”, since they are usually financially independent. (Being older, they have often accumulated the financial means to support themselves and don’t depend on donations.)
Thank you Ayya, that is a great explanation. I think I understand now.
I have an other question. Why and how often are you allowed on the internet? Why does your monastery have internet access? As a layperson who finds the internet quite addictive I find that odd. Though I assume you don’t use the internet for entertainment purposes like us laypeople do.
I am asking because you seem quite active in this community.
I will not respond for Ayyā, or on behalf of any monastic, but having access to the Teachings and the saṅgha on the web has been immensely valuable for myself - and innumerable other lay followers.
The web is a just a tool - if it has the potential to detract from the Practice…well, so does tea time at the temple. I’m personally very grateful for the time that the Saṅgha take to connect with us, answer our questions (just like in this thread!) and provide us the precious resource of the Teachings. The very site we are typing on - including the main site of the largest collection of multi-lingual translations of the tipiṭaka - was developed (and currently maintained & continually upgraded) as a generous offering by many members of the global monastic community. (I used to carry Ven. Bodhi’s enormous tomes on my commute through NYC subways, to be able to read suttas during my lunch break)
The Saṅgha at my local monastery offered daily teachings via the internet through the pandemic - offering solace & community to many people in a difficult time. The many livestreams they continue to give through the week keep us feeling connected to both the Teachings and the community. I’m sure there are monasteries where the internet is non-existent or limited, but if it were the case everywhere, my own life and Practice would be much more bereft for it.
I can’t understand neither your first response(s) nor this one, but it doesn’t matter and as it’s not relevant to the topic, there’s no need to expand.
The world offers a range of experiences which can’t be extrapolated by the past in a specific environment, even when it feels the opposite, as it often does for all of us.
It’s about a deep dive into the reasons behind the choice of monasticism, OP mentions expectations for the lifes of laymen & laywomen but these can work out entirely differently. Monasticism too can work out entirely differently.
There’s a whole range of options to be explored and a whole life ahead
My advice would be to talk to someone she knows and trusts, listens and is empathetic to her concerns.
Hello Dhamma friend,
I would suggest you write to Anukampa Grove in Oxford, UK. The wonderful Ven Canda, a disciple of Ajahn Brahm, has just opened a monastery for women who want to ordain. I’m in Thailand at the Songdhammakalyani Monastery with Ven Dhammananda right now and I will take temporary ordination in April and I, too, am considering permanent ordination here. Having said that, I plan to spend one week at Anukampa Grove in May just to meet Ven Canda and to see this historical bhikkhuni monastery that she has opened. Back to your question, if you Google Anukampa, Ven Canda, the website will automatically appear. I am certain she can guide you. Although, you should know that all monasteries will want to get to know you first so spending quality time there is mandatory and it would be good if you joined their online classes so they can see that you are serious.
I quit my job in December and came straight to Songdhammakalyani without traveling around Thailand first (it’s my first time here). You are young so take your time, check out a few teachers, go spend time in the monasteries and sooner or later something will click and you’ll know where you want to be.
Thank you for the recommendation, it’s exactly what I’m looking for! An anglophone, early Buddhist monastery, and it’s in Europe too! The lady running it looks really nice too. Is it the only monastery in the UK for women or are there others?
This is probably one of the best ones in the EU because Ven Canda is part of Ajahn Brahm’s group. (You shouldn’t call a bhikkhuni a ‘lady’, she’s a bhikkhuni ). Also, she is a serious meditator, she knows her Dhamma and she’s a great teacher. You do know that most of us on this forum are of the Theravada Buddhist tradition, right?
The best thing to do is to begin joining her live teachings via Zoom. Ajahn Brahmali is going to Anukampa in June to do a retreat. I highly recommend you go. A part from being one of the top Theravada Dhamma teachers in the world right now, he is Ajahn Brahm’s senior disciple and you will get a chance to visit Anukampa Grove.
It will take time (and money), but if you are determined and serious, you will find a way.
Correction: yes, it is the ONLY one in the UK. There are other Theravada monasteries with some great teachers but they do not give full ordination to women so I wouldn’t waste my time there.
Thank you a lot for the information! I didn’t know they did online classes via zoom. That’s very convenient for me as I don’t have access to a physical Sangha.
Moderator note: Bhikkhuni ordination is a controversial topic in Theravada with several threads dedicated to that discussion. For anyone wishing to learn more about this and join the conversation, we ask you to select the most suitable of those existing threads through the search function.
Please keep the discussion on this thread about the process of ordaining.
Respectfully, the original post’s content is 80% about background to the decision not about the process, unless it’s only the title that may be commented upon.
Part of commenting that 80% can be advising to discuss with the school’s counselor, especially for someone who is underage at the time of writing.
Every Buddhist monastery that I can think of does Dhamma talks and/or meditation sessions online. You need to do some research to find a teacher/teachers that you like and then follow them and their discourses online. And what the others are telling you is true: first you have to frequent a monastery so they get to know you, then you ask to become an anagarika, then samaneri, then sikkhamana, and if you make it this far, you can request to become a bhikkhuni. The head monk (female)can always refuse or make do extra time as one of the above mentioned levels. But the first thing is to ‘shop around’ to find the place where you think you’d be comfortable and where you can make the most progress on the path.
It’s a long process. When you find the right place, it would be good if you could support them somehow before you go there. I was assisting Ven Dhammananda of Songdhammakalyani almost 2 years before I came here and not just financially (I sponsored and supervised the creation of her new website and then I did some editing for her books.)
There are other bhikkhuni monasteries in Germany and in the Czech Republic.
Good luck!
Kay
Perdona gli errori/Pardon the typos Sent from my IPhone
Sadhu!! Very inspiring to read your story and aspirations! Thank you for sharing!
To add to everything that has been shared, I’m pretty sure that Ven Canda at Anukampa is thinking of having space to take on trainees: that’s part of the rationale for Anukampa’s recent move to a larger property. When the space will be available, that’s not yet clear, but the plan is definitely there.
I’m always encouraging people to consider ordination, esp those who already aspire to ordain, female or male. IMO the Vinaya is “The Training Program” created by the world’s Master Trainer, with an excellent track record for results (ie Nibbana) in the people who have stuck to the training.
While you can still walk the Eightfold Path outside in lay life, the Vinaya is really the closest we have to an eight-lane highway to Nibbana (with the Parajikas being “danger! Point of No return!” signs at the edges of the highway)… Lay folks only have a compass pointing to Nibbana and have to bash through the sensory jungles of Samsara, with all its traps!
So I wish you all the best, and hope for you that conditions ripen for you to ordain and practice with energy.
Thank you so much for your kind response! I just saw on Anukampa’ Facebook group that they just set up a new permament monastery different from the place they were renting beforehand! I’m not set on it yet, but I think I’ve found a nice place. I’ll continue exploring options though.
The recommendations from the bhikkhunīs on this thread are great.
Staying within the EU would make visas and such a non-issue, but I’d also highly recommend traveling around to get a sense of what communities are like elsewhere. In my experience, it was important to physically visit monasteries to get a sense of the community, schedule, etc. You may find that European monasteries have everything you need in regard to a balance of service, formal training and practice opportunities, or you may feel more at home in Thailand or Sri Lanka (for example).
Regarding talking with family, I found this Q&A with some of the folks at Empty Cloud was great:
And this one where they answer questions about monastic life was also very helpful:
To echo what was said earlier, I’d also recommend going out and gradually staying at and living at monasteries before talking with your family about your aspirations and commitment. Initially, it’s an interst and exploration. It might also be helpful to, every once in a while, drop in comments about the positive influence that following the Buddha’s teachings have had on you. (Example: "You know, mum, since I’ve started meditating regularly I’ve been able to handle the pressures of exams much better!”)
You’re welcome to keep in touch with me via private message if you’re interested in knowing more about my personal experiences. I also have a collection of resources (works by and about bhikkhunīs) I’m happy to share
Sukhāya patipadāya Khippābhiññā Hōtu!
(Someone said this to me after a retreat in Sri Lanka. She said it means something like, “In a comfortable proceeding of the path, may you attain nibbāna fast.”)
While looking at your request, inclination and directions you receive from others will help you guide a way, I was reading this book through this book and thought came to consider this line for reflection.
When mindfulness and discernment are complete, women and men can both pass over and beyond — with no question of their having to be ordained.
The Dhamma thus doesn’t stipulate that it’s only for those who are ordained. What is stipulated is that we cure defilement with persistent effort. This is something very important. We have to be very interested in this point.
Ajaan Maha Boowa Ñanasampanno. maha_boowa_straight_from_the_heart (Kindle Locations 1328-1329). Kindle Edition.
Free copies of book can be found here Straight from the Heart | Abhayagiri Monastery
And there are plenty of resources available worldwide on Buddha Dhamma Sangha, SuttaCentral, various YouTube videos, monastery websites, retreats, Vipassana centers etc. you could use to practice this while you decide on your next step.
While you say the truth, it should not be the only way, “the more you give the more you get”. Please let me know the website of your monastery for making donations
). Also, she is a serious meditator, she knows her Dhamma and she’s a great teacher. You do know that most of us on this forum are of the Theravada Buddhist tradition, right?
