How do YOU know its Sentient?

[josephzizys]

@stu

But if—when it comes to this attraction, grasping, mental fixation, insistence, and underlying tendency—you don’t get attracted, grasp, and commit to the notion ‘my self’, you’ll have no doubt or uncertainty that what arises is just suffering arising, and what ceases is just suffering ceasing. Your knowledge about this is independent of others.

This is how right view is defined.

Again, this quote (which I alluded to in my previous post) demonstrates precisely my point, the “just” is not meant to claim that all experiences are purely or only suffering, it is saying that there is not a “my self” that is arising or ceasing, otherwise, SN22.60 gives us a contradiction, as I say above;

“Mahāli, if form were exclusively painful—soaked and steeped in pain and not steeped in pleasure—sentient beings wouldn’t lust after it.
“Rūpañca hidaṁ, mahāli, ekantadukkhaṁ abhavissa dukkhānupatitaṁ dukkhāvakkantaṁ anavakkantaṁ sukhena, nayidaṁ sattā rūpasmiṁ sārajjeyyuṁ.
But because form is pleasurable—soaked and steeped in pleasure and not steeped in pain—sentient beings do lust after it.
Yasmā ca kho, mahāli, rūpaṁ sukhaṁ sukhānupatitaṁ sukhāvakkantaṁ anavakkantaṁ dukkhena, tasmā sattā rūpasmiṁ sārajjanti;

Perhaps you can explain the above quote from your perspective?

[josephzizys]

also thank you so much for https://wiswo.org/ btw! i am using it to help me wade through Warder and it is a magnificent resource.

[stu]

I don’t think that we’re disagreeing. That’s why my previous post started with

@stu

Yes

@josephzizys

Perhaps you can explain the above quote from your perspective?

That’s what deluded minds do. They lust after pleasure because they think it is happiness. They are deluded. I understand it in context of the teaching on gratification, drawback and escape as in MN13

@josephzizys

also thank you so much for https://wiswo.org/ btw! i am using it to help me wade through Warder and it is a magnificent resource.

You’re very welcome. It’s phenomenal that we have got access to these teachings. It was a series of fortunate events. Great thanks goes to whoever put that microphone in front of Ajahns face and Venerables @Vimala & @Brahmali for being so supportive in making it available to us all.

[Martin]

Yes, Ajahn Brahm - I misread that for some reason!
Anyway, what do think of the points I made?

[stu]

@Martin

but she feels it detached. It’s a “modicum of stress”, according to MN121.

Yes. The default state of the mind of an Arahant is jhana, which is of course blissful with a just a modicum of stress. When they are not teaching that’s where the Arahant mind naturally abides.

@Martin

Given that, it doesn’t make sense to interpret the final verse as saying the Arahant only experiences suffering.

The reason they only see suffering arising and suffering ceasing is because they have the full picture of gratification, danger and escape.

[Martin]

In the context of SN5.10, only seeing suffering is a realisation of anatta, the realisation that a “being” is just a convention or view.
But that doesn’t mean the Arahant still suffers.

[stu]

OK. I understand your understanding I think. So just to make myself clear, I’m only talking about the Arahant before they pass away. So for one last attempt, let me come from it at a slightly different angle.

In the MN141 we get Sāriputta riffing on suffering:

And what is the noble truth of suffering? Rebirth is suffering; old age is suffering; death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress are suffering; not getting what you wish for is suffering. In brief, the five grasping aggregates are suffering.

…

And what is old age? The old age, decrepitude, broken teeth, grey hair, wrinkly skin, diminished vitality, and failing faculties of the various sentient beings in the various orders of sentient beings. This is called old age.

And what is death? The passing away, perishing, disintegration, demise, mortality, death, decease, breaking up of the aggregates, laying to rest of the corpse, and cutting off of the life faculty of the various sentient beings in the various orders of sentient beings. This is called death.

…

And what is pain? Physical pain, physical displeasure, the painful, unpleasant feeling that’s born from physical contact. This is called pain.

So you’re understanding (which may be true and there certainly are Buddhists that would agree with you), if I’ve got you right, is that for an Arahant there is

no:

• old age, decrepitude, broken teeth, grey hair, wrinkly skin, diminished vitality, and failing faculties

no:

• passing away, perishing, disintegration, demise, mortality, death, decease, breaking up of the aggregates, laying to rest of the corpse, and cutting off of the life faculty

no:

• Physical pain, physical displeasure, the painful, unpleasant feeling that’s born from physical contact.

Then in SN56.14 we get:

“Mendicants, there are these four noble truths. What four? The noble truths of suffering, the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering.

And what is the noble truth of suffering? You should say: ‘The six interior sense fields’. What six? The sense fields of the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind. This is called the noble truth of suffering. …”

I guess one could argue that those interior sense fields have completely ceased prior to the Arahant passing away, but that is difficult to understand for me. But hey! Who could fathom an Arahant?

[josephzizys]

@stu

And what is the noble truth of suffering? Rebirth is suffering; old age is suffering; death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress are suffering; not getting what you wish for is suffering. In brief, the five grasping aggregates are suffering.

I note that it doesn’t say “sex is suffering, youth and beauty is suffering, joy, laughter, pleasure, happiness and peace are suffering, getting what you want is suffering”

Just sayin.

[stu]

Cool, I’ll just have those then.

@josephzizys

sex is suffering

this one’s great. Being of a certain age now, I understand Leonard Cohen when he said:

Well, my friends are gone and my hair is grey
I ache in the places where I used to play

Got to see the big picture

To be fair, when the Buddha says that he only sees suffering arising and suffering ceasing, he might as well say that he only see happiness arising and happiness ceasing. Suffering is the bit between two moments of happiness, and happiness is the bit between two moments of suffering, and that’s the tragedy.

[josephzizys]

Yes, I like that one, and I agree - I think that’s the point of saying the aggregates are suffering or the sense bases are suffering, not so much that it’s all just and only suffering but that suffering is entailed even by the good stuff, like when it’s gone.

I guess we have reached the point in a good Buddhist argument where we are in furious agreement.

Until next time

[Green]

@stu

It’s delusion to think that you are not creating suffering all the time.

Maybe this is true for a Buddha, i do not know. I think this might be true for a Buddha.

I cannot say this is true for me at the moment. I do not really experience all formations or states as suffering. That is my truth at this moment. I do not say it will always be like that. Maybe if one really knows cessation of perception and feeling as the ending of all burden, then, maybe one is introduced in the truth that all formations are suffering. I do not know that state of cessation. I do not have that reference, yet.

It all depends, i think. It also depends on how sensitive you become. The Buddha was, i belief, extremely sensitive, very refined. If even a nice feeling is felt as burden then you are quit sensitive.

Your idea that even just the arising and ceasing of a sound, smell, touch, visual, taste, thought (formation) is a kind of agitation, suffering, i cannot really relate too at this moment but i do not exclude it might become true.

I cannot denie that i sometimes also think that one can become to sensitive and start to experience everything as suffering, as burdensome. But is this a good development? I think we must also be prepared to carry the burden, because life is burdensome.

[stu]

@Green

I cannot denie that i sometimes also think that one can become to sensitive and start to experience everything as suffering, as burdensome. But is this a good development? I think we must also be prepared to carry the burden, because life is burdensome.

I think that the Buddha would say that it is a good development, and encourage us to put down the burden.

In AN7.83 we get:

“Upāli, you might know that certain things don’t lead solely to disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment. You should definitely bear in mind that such things are not the teaching, not the training, and not the Teacher’s instructions. You might know that certain things do lead solely to disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment. You should definitely bear in mind that such things are the teaching, the training, and the Teacher’s instructions.”

That disillusionment & dispassion is nibbidā and virāga. It’s a turning inward, instead of out towards the world. The suggestion is that the burden is only heavy if you pick it up. We’ve been carrying it for a long time; so the Buddha suggests we put it down; abandon it, then it’s not heavy.

The Buddha has some great similes in MN54 to help us to get our bearings and then to start moving in the right direction. The similes begin with:

“Householder, suppose a dog weak with hunger was hanging around a butcher’s shop. Then a deft butcher or their apprentice would toss them a skeleton scraped clean of flesh and smeared in blood. What do you think, householder? Gnawing on such a fleshless skeleton, would that dog still get rid of its hunger?”

“No, sir. Why not? Because that skeleton is scraped clean of flesh and smeared in blood. That dog will eventually get weary and frustrated.”

[Martin]

Why would aging and death be a source of suffering when craving and aversion have ceased, and when the Arahant no longer identifies with the body as “me” and “mine”?
The sources of suffering listed under the First Noble Truth apply to us worldlings, and not to the Arahant. We are bound by the Second Noble Truth, but the Arahant is liberated from suffering by means of the Third Truth.

[Martin]

But the whole point of Buddhist practice is liberation from suffering.

[stu]

@Martin

aging and death be a source of suffering

It doesn’t say they are a source of suffering, it says “old age is suffering; death is suffering;”

@Martin

when craving and aversion have ceased

I thought we both agree that the second arrow (dart) does not strike the Arahant, just the first one? All I’m saying is that one strike of an arrow is (physical) suffering, but it does not become the “source” (to use your word) of the second (mental) strike. I didn’t think I was being particularly controversial

@Martin

But the whole point of Buddhist practice is liberation from suffering

And that’s what we get when rebirth is ended. AN10.65

“Rebirth is suffering, reverend, no rebirth is happiness. When there is rebirth, you can expect this kind of suffering. Cold, heat, hunger, thirst, defecation, and urination. Contact with fire, clubs, and knives. And relatives and friends get together and annoy you. When there is rebirth, this is the kind of suffering you can expect. When there is no rebirth, you can expect this kind of happiness. No cold, heat, hunger, thirst, defecation, or urination. No contact with fire, clubs, or knives. And relatives and friends don’t get together and annoy you. When there is no rebirth, this is the kind of happiness you can expect.”

[Green]

@stu

I think that the Buddha would say that it is a good development, and encourage us to put down the burden.

That is at least what the composers of the texts want us to belief. I know, but that does not mean i have my own thoughts about this @stu. I do not worry about rebirth and ending rebirth. It is no issue in my heart. I have noticed that for a long time and it still is not an issue.

In some way i do not long for an escape of all suffering as in ‘no more birth, sickness, old age, pain, sadness, grief, death for me’.

Does that mean i have no longing for Nibbana? I do not think so. For me, Buddha-Dhamma is about freeing the heart from its imprisonment. The jail is not really samsara, or this life on Earth, or birth, sickness, old age and death. But the jail is all what imprisons the heart.
The Buddha talked about it as anusaya, asava, tanha, avijja. Those are the bars of the prison cel, i feel. That’s what i want to belief.

@stu

That disillusionment & dispassion is nibbidā and virāga. It’s a turning inward, instead of out towards the world.

I have noticed that there is a state in which hunger is just absent. You do not feel you need anything. You do not miss anything. It is hard to see what are the conditions of this state. It looks like it is unpredictable. It is suddenly there. No result of a method, Path, practise. At least, i think. There are also times when you all the time feel hungry, crave, and feel bad. Nothing helps.

I have tried to analyse it, but it is hard to see what is really going on. I think the most important factor in this state of constant hunger is a feeling of being disconnected, alone, not loved, not seen, not heard. Disconnected ego grows and suffering grows. Something like that.

But there are also rare moments, times, when mind is without craving. You do not miss a thing. In some way you are connected. There is natural feeling of peace, joy, compassion, love, effortless.
It is like all is oke. I have never ever experienced this as a direct result of some practice or method.
It was always suddenly there. Unexpacted. How come? I do not know.

[Green]

@stu

“Rebirth is suffering, reverend, no rebirth is happiness. When there is rebirth, you can expect this kind of suffering. Cold, heat, hunger, thirst, defecation, and urination. Contact with fire, clubs, and knives. And relatives and friends get together and annoy you. When there is rebirth, this is the kind of suffering you can expect. When there is no rebirth, you can expect this kind of happiness. No cold, heat, hunger, thirst, defecation, or urination. No contact with fire, clubs, or knives. And relatives and friends don’t get together and annoy you. When there is no rebirth, this is the kind of happiness you can expect.”

An eternal sleep like state, in which nothing is sensed, perceived, felt, cognized.
Is that parinibbana?

[Martin]

To paraphrase dependent origination, the list of things in the First Noble Truth are suffering while ignorance and craving persist. But these things are not suffering for the Arahant, for whom ignorance and craving have ceased (as per the Third Noble Truth).

[stu]

I haven’t experienced parinibbana yet. If you can find someone who has, ley me know the answer

I’ve literally just been proof reading this which you might like:

There are just eighteen different types of vedāna (feeling) and that’s all you can have. They’re just packaged in different wrapping but really there are only eighteen. If you’ve experienced each one of those different vedanās then you’ve experienced the whole of saṁsāra. So, after a while you say, “Been there, done that”. You go up the Amazon and this is just another cakkhu viññāṇa, eye sensation. If you like it, it is sukha, if you don’t like it, it is dukkha. Here we go again. There are only eighteen things to experience in this world. So: been there, done that! Have an end to it. When one sees in this way, it’s the cause for cessation.

[stu]

Hey we’re back at post #31. Hurrah for us!!