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Is cessation of perception and feeling nibbana?

Buddha said when craving cease suffering cease
we can have cessation of craving without cessation of feeling but when we have cessation of feeling we don’t have craving as long as that state last

Cessation of feeling doesn’t mean cessation of ignorance but when ignorance cease we would still have feeling ,this feelings is the fuel or effluent remaining

So I think when craving cease feeling eventually will cease when the fuel runs out or what we call nibbana without remaining fuel

The fuel here is the 5 aggregates which is the combined physical body + mental body

When feeling cease ignorance will eventually cease when the fuel run out

My sub questions
1.Can we have cessation of craving without cessation of ignorance ?

2.Can we have cessation of feeling without cessation of ignorance ?

If you answer no on question 2 but yes on question 1, then either you contradict yourself or I am Missing something because you say even with ignorance we can have cessation of feeling and because cessation of feeling → cessation of craving you imply that even with ignorance we can have cessation of craving because cessation of craving → cessation of suffering you imply indirectly that even with ignorance we can have cessation of suffering even if that’s the case I don’t know why buddha place ignorance as the root of dependent origination if really cessation of ignorance is not necessary to get cessation of suffering

After emergence from cessation attainment Then the first feeling which is equanimity feeling arise but I don’t think craving arise as the meditators knowed with direct knowledge how cessation of feeling is better than equanimity feeling so I don’t think he will crave anything

What do you think ? Please correct me as needed

  1. Cessation of ignorance is the state of being an arahant.
  2. Cessation attainment is a short-lived taste of nibbāna at stream-entry+.

So, yes you can have (temporary) cessation of feeling without (total) cessation of ignorance. Does that answer your question?

Not right away, though she will be inclined towards seclusion! But if the meditator isn’t an arahant, eventually cravings do wiggle their way back into the mind after the after-glow fades.

Hope that helps!

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Thanks bhante :pray:

But do you mean people can still crave equanimity feeling even after tasting cessation attainment or nibbana ?

I know some masochist like painful contact even though pleasant contact can be access by them but they perceive painful contact as pleasant, in the case of cessation attainment there is no contact at all in case of dimension of neither perception nor non perception the only contact exists is mind contact, it’s equanimity feeling which arise due to mind contact

I dunno about these higher states, but it’s certainly true for me on even after tasting joy and happiness born from stillness in meditation, I still crave for useless sensual pleasures, like video games, TV, books, lust for girls, etc. It’s a good thing for me to renounce as an external aid to let go of these, and go more into the joy of meditation. Without truly seeing impermanence, suffering, not self nature of these (ending ignorance), cravings can still have roots to grow again. Although, for the case of stream winners, they certainly had gone to a level where they are destined to finish the journey within a finite time, no matter what.

Did you come here from r/Buddhism?

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That’s interesting bhante :pray:

Yes I come from r/buddhism

I don’t think the first jhana based on your description is more pleasurable than sensual pleasure bhante

There’s plenty of stages of joy and happiness from meditation before 1st Jhana. In any case, I didn’t mean to imply my words to say that I have any sorts of such attainments.

Can you provide the relevant suttas bhante so I can learn more ?

As far as my limited knowledge goes when you have rapture and pleasure that’s first jhana

I follow Ajahn Brahm’s method, so youtube “Ajahn Brahm meditation retreat”.

Crucially, the Jhanas involve no more aware of the 5 physical sense objects. Those who don’t emphasise on this are various levels of Jhana lite which sort of downgrades the standards of Jhanas.

So, yes, to a person believing in Jhana lite, my statement would mean Jhana to them.

AN 11.12:

2] “Furthermore, there is the case where you recollect the Dhamma: ‘The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One, to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves.’ At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the Dhamma, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the Dhamma. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated.”

Note that AN 11.12 is addressed to a layperson and so is appropriate for western practitioners, as studying suttas at that level avoids the confusion which accompanies suttas delivered from the arahant (that is the unconditioned) perspective.

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Is ajahn @Brahmali ajahn brahm ?

So how do you differentiate between piti and sukha in your access concentration bhante ?

If I am not mistaken Buddha said in first jhana you completely submerge in rapture and pleasure born from seclusion there is no part of your body that doesn’t have those rapture and pleasure born from seclusion so I think even the existence piti and sukha won’t guarantee first jhana but do you submerge in piti and sukha bhante ?

It should be noted that according Visuddhimagga, cessation of perception and feeling can be attain by an Anagami too, so the attaintment of cessation of perception and feeling is definitely not Nibbana. But I don’t know is this attested in the suttas? :thinking:

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Ajahn Brahm is short for Ajahn Brahmavamso. Ajahn Brahmali is one of the senior disciples of Ajahn Brahm.

Piti is more course, excitement kinda thing. Sukha is more underlying happiness. I dunno if it is even access concentration.

It’s not a good idea generally to ask monks (I am still a novice monk, but still) about Jhana attainments of themselves. Generally, such superhuman attainments stuffs are only discussed between the student and their teachers. So not even fellow monastics whom you live together do you really know their levels.

The vinaya has a rule of monks not allowed to reveal such attainments (if they have them) to unordained persons. In another rule, more serious, if they don’t have these attainments and claim to have (a lie), then it’s a ground for automatic disrobe, cannot become monastic again in that life.

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It’s interesting that even in Access concentration or pre jhana there is piti and sukha ,I think after developing first jhana the meditator won’t crave sensual pleasure forever, the same thing happens to meditator who have taste cessation I don’t think they would crave anything again

A developed first jhana is described when you completely submerge in piti and sukha there’s no part of your body that’s not submerged in piti and sukha if I am not mistaken

Don’t confuse Jhana with stream winner. Only stream winning is the security. Ajahn Brahm has frequently talk about a heroin addict who got to the Jhanas, but fell back into drugs.

Also cessation of perception and feelings is already guaranteeing non-returner and arahanthood, above stream winning level already.

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I don’t think those addicts attain jhana, maybe they attain pre jhana state bhante, real jhana is more pleasurable than sensual pleasure, I think we know whether people enter jhana or not from their daily activities if they still indulge in sensuality pleasure they don’t attain jhana I don’t think they even attain pre jhana

You said previously that you didn’t think you attain even momentary concentration let alone access concentration or even jhana, based on your experience I don’t think they would even achieve pre momentary concentration let alone momentary concentration

It’s like smoker who do drugs and stop smoking, they don’t stop smoking for good reason they stop smoking because they have drugs now

If drugs addicts attain jhana I think they would stop drugs but for a bad reason that because they become jhana addicts now

So to say that people who attain jhana and by jhana I don’t mean jhana lite but real full body jhana will go back to sensual pleasure is the same thing like saying after tasting drug they still will smoke

I class that as also part of the ‘top down’ approach. The following causal sequence is on the other hand from the bottom up, and able to be experienced by western practitioners:

Even a lay women can attain fourth jhana let alone monk

An7.53
“It’s incredible, Nanda’s Mother, it’s amazing!”

“Sir, this is not my only incredible and amazing quality; there is another. Whenever I want, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I enter and remain in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. As the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, I enter and remain in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and confidence, and unified mind, without placing the mind and keeping it connected. And with the fading away of rapture, I enter and remain in the third absorption, where I meditate with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.’ With the giving up of pleasure and pain, and the ending of former happiness and sadness, I enter and remain in the fourth absorption, without pleasure or pain, with pure equanimity and mindfulness.”

Here’s Bhante Katukurunde Nyanananda :

The difference between Cessation of Perception and Feeling and arahattaphalasamāpatti

is that while in the latter state one is ‘percipient

(conscious) and awake’ (saññi samāno jāgaro) as is evident from

the M.P.S. episode of the Buddha being unaware of the torrential

downpour with streaks of lightning and peals of thunder while

being awake and conscious. What he was conscious of was the

very cessation of existence (‘bhava nirodho Nibbānaṁ’)

summed up in the dictum ‘etaṁ santaṁ… etc’. ‘This is peaceful

this is excellent… etc’. The same experience is called

saḷāyatananirodha’ cessation of the six sense spheres. Nibbānic

consciousness is non-manifestative consciousness

anidassanaviññāṇa which does not manifest a nāma-rūpa. Here

is the blissful experience of ‘bhavanirodha’ in the light of Paññā

(wisdom).

This is not the case with the CPF. As Ven Dhammadinnā

Therī explains in reply to Visākha Upāsaka’s question: ‘How

lady does the attainments of the cessation of perception and

feeling come about? One is even not aware of the fact that one is

in that attainment.

Na kho āvuso Visākha saññāvedayitanirodhaṁ

samāpajjantassa bhikkhuno evaṁ hoti ahaṁ saññāvedayitanirodhaṁ

samāpajjissanti vā ahaṁ saññāvedayitanirodhaṁ

samāpajjāmīti vā ahaṁ saññāvedayitanirodhaṁ samāpannoti vā.

Atha khvāssa pubbeva tathā cittṁ bhāvitaṁ hoti yantaṁ

tathattāya upanetīti!

‘Friend Visakha, when a monk is attaining the cessation

of perception and feeling it does not occur to him: I shall attain

the cessation of perception and feeling or I am attaining the

cessation of perception and feeling or I have attained the

cessation of perception and feeling; but rather his mind has

previously been developed in such a way that it leads him to that

state.’

VI. Although Mahā Nidāna Sutta mentions C.P.F. as the eight

vimokkha it does not equate it to the experience of Nibbāna as

could be gleaned from a careful scrutiny of the ‘summing up of

the section on ‘‘one who is liberated both ways’ (ubhatobhāga

vimutta).

Yato kho Ānanda bhikkhu ime aṭṭha vimokkhe

anulomampi samāpajjati paṭilomampi samāpajjati anulomapaṭilomampi

samāpajjati, yatthicchakaṁ yadicchakaṁ

yāvaticchakaṁ samāpajjatipi vuṭṭhātipi āsavānañca khayā

anāsavam cetovimuttiṁ paññāvimuttiṁ diṭṭheva dhamme sayaṁ

abhiññā sacchikatvā upasampajja viharati. Ayaṁ vuccati Ānanda

bhikkhu ubhatobhāgavimutto imāya ca ānanda ubhatobhāgavimuttiyā

aññā ubhatobhāgavimutti uttaritarā paṇītatarā

natthi ti.

“Ananda when once a monk attains these eight liberations

in direct order in reverse order and in direct and reverse order,

entering them and emerging from them as and when, and for as

long as he wishes and has gained by his own higher knowledge

here and now by the destruction of influxes both the

liberation of the mind and the liberation through wisdom, that

monk is called both ways liberated and Ananda there is no other

way of both ways liberation that is higher or more excellent than

this.”

Note: Maurice Walshe’s translation is not accurate (p. 230

Long Discourses of the Buddha).

He has here and now both the destruction of the

corruptions … – which is incorrect. The liberation through

wisdom comes after emerging from C.P.F. as we have pointed

out above.

VII. Perhaps the most convincing argument against the general

belief that saññāvedayitanirodha samāpatti itself is Nibbāna, is

the fact that according to Mahā parinibbāna Sutta the Buddha

passed away or attained parinibbāna not while he was in Nirodha

Samāpatti but having come down from it to the fourth jhāna. It is

immediately after arising from the fourth jhāna that he passed

away.

(catutthajjhānā vuṭṭhahitvā samanantarā Bhagavā

parinibbāyi.)

How easy it is to mistake Nirodha Samāpatti as Nibbāna

is well illustrated by Venerable Ananda’s remark when the

Buddha by stages reached the nirodha samāpatti on that

occasion.

Parinibbuto bhante Anuruddha Bhagavā

‘Ven Sir Anuruddha the Exalted One has attained

parinibbāna.

But Venerable Anuruddha corrected him with the

following authoritative statement: ‘Na āvuso Ānanda Bhagavā

parinibbuto saññāvedayita nirodhaṁ samāpannoti.

“No friend Ananda the Exalted One has not attained

parinibbāna, he has (only) attained to the cessation of perception

and feeling.”

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I recommend not to simply talk about cases from 3rd person’s viewpoint (me), or 4th person’s viewpoint (you).

2nd person viewpoint is Ajahn Brahm’s. He has very high standards for Jhanas, likely highest in the world, so when he interviews people and verified that that person has Jhanas, it’s not playing around. 1st person is the drug addict himself.

Do listen to the retreats talks.

Also, don’t idealize Jhanas. Jhanas should be this or that. Then you’ll encounter obstacles when trying to attain it. Just train under a good teacher, like Ajahn Brahm or Pa Auk traditions.

Individuals has many different past kammas and past life trainings. One shouldn’t simply overgeneralise and compare. This statement makes me think that you’ve not been to a meditation retreat where the teacher teaches Jhanas. Do attend such retreats.

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Can you please give us reference to your posted text? At Wikipedia under Ven. K.N.'s name are many publications listed and Pdfs.
Thank you. :pray: