Is cessation of perception and feeling nibbana?

Yes I think I will research more into this, if ajahn brahmavamso uses visuddhimagga then his standard of jhana is already high I think

But ajahn chah is much better than ajahn brahmavamso I think especially because ajahn chah is ajahn brahmavamso’s teacher https://bswa.org/teachers/ajahn-brahm/ajahn-brahm-bio/

So if ajahn chah can be wrong let alone ajahn brahmavamso

Ajahn Chah is widely regarded as arahant, best not to simply say such things about arahants. This advice is common amongst those who are living with monastics and Buddhist traditions. Do you go into Buddhism alone or do you have live access to monastics or a Buddhist society?

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I don’t say anything bad about ajahn chah because there is no possibility of such thing in ajahn chah it’s like saying if buddha can be wrong then so am I but buddha can’t be wrong

I am still learning buddhism alone I follow bhante thanissaro and ajahn chah

wonderful clarification. Thanks so much for this text.
There is something to reflect in seeing the Buddha departed from this world with a discernment arising from equanimity instead from another one

Finally I can find a convincing argument that cessation attainment is not nibbana

Thanks for everyone who help me :pray::pray:

I think if one attains cessation attainment and they die while being there they would still born in non percipient realm where they have body but they don’t have perception or feeling

Dn15
There are sentient beings that have gone totally beyond the dimension of infinite consciousness. Aware that ‘there is nothing at all’, they have been reborn in the dimension of nothingness. This is the seventh plane of consciousness.

Then there’s the dimension of non-percipient beings, and secondly, the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.

Now, regarding these seven planes of consciousness and two dimensions, is it appropriate for someone who understands them—and their origin, ending, gratification, drawback, and escape—to take pleasure in them?”

“No, sir.”

“When a mendicant, having truly understood the origin, ending, gratification, drawback, and escape regarding these seven planes of consciousness and these two dimensions, is freed by not grasping, they’re called a mendicant who is freed by wisdom.

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I don’t think cessation is not nibbana obviously buddha said that when feeling cease craving cease when craving cease suffering cease

Obviously people in that non percipient abode/realm don’t experience suffering which is the goal, they even don’t experience anything in that realm

Looking at the 31 realms of existence, the highest is already neither perception nor non-perception. There’s no such realm you described. Nibbana is not a realm.

Yes I mean dimension, being is still born in that dimension that’s why I don’t think cessation attainment is nibbana

The highest is non percipient dimension not Neither perception nor non perception, do you even read the quoted sutta ?

If you die in cessation attainment you would not achieve nibbana instead you would born in that non percipient dimension

Nibbana is a dimension but a different dimension than non percipient dimension

Ud8.1
There is, mendicants, that dimension where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no wind; no dimension of infinite space, no dimension of infinite consciousness, no dimension of nothingness, no dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; no this world, no other world, no moon or sun. There, mendicants, I say there is no coming or going or remaining or passing away or reappearing. It is not established, does not proceed, and has no support. Just this is the end of suffering.”

There’s no such thing as non-percipient dimension as a realm of rebirth. Show me where is that in the 31 realms of existence.

As to what happens if one dies while in cessation of perception and feelings, there’s a few possibilities:

  1. Like Jhana attainments, one’s physical body cannot die while in that cessation of perception and feelings, so one has to wait until one gets out of it then death by whatever means can happen.

  2. One either is no longer reborn if one is an arahant and dies in the cessation of perception and feelings, or one is reborn in the pure abodes or other form and formless realms if one is a non-returner, or the non-returner attains to final nibbana after death, but before rebirth happens, like a spark which disappears mid-flight before landing on the ground.

Let’s use the full term, cessation of perception and feelings (CPF), or use CPF as a shortcut.

Nibbana is commonly described as just cessation, so good to have different terminologies.

So your quote has double negative, meaning, you think CPF is nibbana?

Ajahn Brahm has this to say about difference between CPF and nibbana. CPF is like the stilled sea surface, no waves, no tides, but the surface and possibilities for it to arise is still there. That is one can emerge from CPF and have perception and feelings again. Nibbana is the sea disappears, not even the possibility of waves or tide can happen, because no sea.

Also, the nibbana here refers to the final nibbana after death of arahants.

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An9.24
There are sentient beings that are non-percipient and do not experience anything, such as the gods who are non-percipient beings. This is the fifth abode of sentient beings

Dn1
There are gods named ‘non-percipient beings’. When perception arises they pass away from that host of gods. It’s possible that one of those beings passes away from that host and is reborn in this state of existence. Having done so, they go forth from the lay life to homelessness. By dint of keen, resolute, committed, and diligent effort, and right focus, they experience an immersion of the heart of such a kind that they recollect the arising of perception, but no further. They say: ‘The self and the cosmos arose by chance. Why is that ?Because formerly I didn’t exist. Now, having not been, I’ve sprung into existence.’ This is the first ground on which some ascetics and brahmins rely to assert that the self and the cosmos arose by chance

That realm, if you look closely at the positioning in the 31 realms of existence, is besides the 4th jhana brahma realm, below the pure abodes, and certainly below the 4 formless realms.

It’s said that that realm is reborn into if one practises the 4th jhana, reflecting that mind is the source of suffering, how good is it if there’s only body.

If that realm is connected to the attainment of CPF, then it makes no sense to place it lower than the formless realms, as the formless attainments are lower than CPF.

Also, let’s establish that those who attained to CPF are either non-returner or arahants. Since we are concerning the case of rebirth, we only need to be concerned with non-returners.

Non-returners cannot be reborn again in the sense desire realms, like humans. Whereas the passage you cited above in DN1, very clearly states that “There are gods named ‘non-percipient beings’. When perception arises they pass away from that host of gods. It’s possible that one of those beings passes away from that host and is reborn in this state of existence.” They reborn back as humans.

QED.

No one said if you enter cpf you will become non returner

I think this is the closest I can find for now. Very good challenge, I have no idea where I got that. Still, hard to find sutta support.

Buddha didnt explicitly say you will become non returner there so I don’t know why do you assume such a thing it may not even a pure abode/akannitha realm

There are many mind made realms

For example realm of streaming radiance

Dn1
As the cosmos contracts, sentient beings are mostly headed for the realm of streaming radiance. There they are mind-made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, moving through the sky, steadily glorious, and they remain like that for a very long time

Even brahma realm is mind made too

Dn1
Then a certain sentient being—due to the running out of their life-span or merit—passes away from that host of radiant deities and is reborn in that empty mansion of Brahmā. There they are mind-made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, moving through the sky, steadily glorious, and they remain like that for a very long time.

But if you assume that only in pure abode there is arahant is wrong too
Since people can be an arahant just from this earth and all gods realms even in Neither perception nor non perception realm you can be an arahant there but only in pure abode the guarantee exists

1 . No
2. No. Cessation of feeling is due to cessation of contact . Cessation of contact is due to cessation of six sense sphere .

Cessation of feeling in paṭiccasamuppāda is different from cessation of feeling perception .

Right , non percipient beings appear to be of pure abode .

No , CPF are not necessary are of non returner or arahant .

Anyway do you happen to have sutta reference ?

The meditators who attain cessation attainment still have 6 sense bases including eye and others

So what kind of feeling still exists in cessation attainment ?

Do you argue that people without suffering are not arahant ?

You can look at dn15 bhante :pray::pray:

Dn15
Ānanda, there are seven planes of consciousness and two dimensions. What seven?

There are sentient beings that are diverse in body and diverse in perception, such as human beings, some gods, and some beings in the underworld. This is the first plane of consciousness.

There are sentient beings that are diverse in body and unified in perception, such as the gods reborn in Brahmā’s Host through the first absorption. This is the second plane of consciousness.

There are sentient beings that are unified in body and diverse in perception, such as the gods of streaming radiance. This is the third plane of consciousness.

There are sentient beings that are unified in body and unified in perception, such as the gods replete with glory. This is the fourth plane of consciousness.

There are sentient beings that have gone totally beyond perceptions of form. With the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘space is infinite’, they have been reborn in the dimension of infinite space. This is the fifth plane of consciousness.

There are sentient beings that have gone totally beyond the dimension of infinite space. Aware that ‘consciousness is infinite’, they have been reborn in the dimension of infinite consciousness. This is the sixth plane of consciousness.

There are sentient beings that have gone totally beyond the dimension of infinite consciousness. Aware that ‘there is nothing at all’, they have been reborn in the dimension of nothingness. This is the seventh plane of consciousness.

Then there’s the dimension of non-percipient beings, and secondly, the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.

It’s interesting that buddha described Neither perception as dimension instead of plane

But we can refer to mn120 for explanation

Mn120
the gods of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception are long-lived, beautiful, and very happy.’ They think: ‘If only, when my body breaks up, after death, I would be reborn in the company of the gods of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception!’ They settle on that thought, stabilize it and develop it. Those choices and meditations of theirs, developed and cultivated like this, lead to rebirth there. This is the path and the practice that leads to rebirth there.

Mn41 further detail these

Mn41
A person of principled and moral conduct might wish: ‘If only, when my body breaks up, after death, I would be reborn in the company of well-to-do brahmins … well-to-do householders … the Gods of the Four Great Kings … the Gods of the Thirty-Three … the Gods of Yama … the Joyful Gods … the Gods Who Love to Create … the Gods Who Control the Creations of Others … the Gods of Brahmā’s Host … the Radiant Gods…the Gods of Limited Radiance … the Gods of Limitless Radiance … the Gods of Streaming Radiance … the Gods of Limited Glory … the Gods of Limitless Glory … the Gods Replete with Glory … the Gods of Abundant Fruit … the Gods of Aviha … the Gods of Atappa … the Gods Fair to See … the Fair Seeing Gods … the Gods of Akaniṭṭha … the gods of the dimension of infinite space … the gods of the dimension of infinite consciousness … the gods of the dimension of nothingness … the gods of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.’ It’s possible that this might happen. Why is that? Because they have principled and moral conduct.

You can see that god of dimension of neither perception nor non perception is higher than the 5 pure abodes even though in connection to dhamma the pure abodes is the highest because of its non returner guarantee

Yet you didn’t ask why doesn’t pure abodes is higher than dimension of neither perception nor non perception

I think you have double standard here bhante

https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=27910

“Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu accomplished in virtuous behavior, concentration, and wisdom might enter and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling. If he does not reach final knowledge in this very life, then, having been reborn among a certain group of mind-made [deities] that transcend the company of devas that subsist on edible food, he might [again] enter and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling. There is this possibility.”
(AN 6.166 / III.194, tr B. Bodhi)

The above suggests that one who reaches cessation of perception will most likely attain arahantship. The following passage confirms this even more so:

“Then there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. Even this much is described by the Blessed One as the attaining of an opening in a confining place, without a sequel.”
AN 9.042
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka … .than.html

Buddha didnt explicitly say you will become non returner there so I don’t know why you assume such a thing it may not even a pure abode/akannitha realm

There are many mind made realms

For example realm of streaming radiance

Dn1
As the cosmos contracts, sentient beings are mostly headed for the realm of streaming radiance. There they are mind-made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, moving through the sky, steadily glorious, and they remain like that for a very long time

Even brahma realm is mind made too

Dn1
Then a certain sentient being—due to the running out of their life-span or merit—passes away from that host of radiant deities and is reborn in that empty mansion of Brahmā. There they are mind-made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, moving through the sky, steadily glorious, and they remain like that for a very long time.

But if you assume that only in pure abode there is arahant that is wrong too
Since people can be an arahant just from this earth and all gods realms even in Neither perception nor non perception realm you can be an arahant there but only in pure abode the guarantee exists

Remember that mind made bodies are physical not mental

Dn9
What is a mind-made reincarnation? It is physical, mind-made, complete in all its various parts, not deficient in any faculty. What is a non-physical reincarnation? It is non-physical, made of perception

What are faculties here ?

Sn48.53
Furthermore, a mendicant who is an adept understands the six faculties: eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind.

The buddha even scolded udayi for saying that mind made bodies are mental not physical

An5.166
Then the Buddha said to Venerable Udāyī, “But Udāyī, do you believe in a mind-made body?”

“For those gods, sir, who are formless, made of perception.”

“Udāyī, what has an incompetent fool like you got to say? How on earth could you imagine you’ve got something worth saying!”

What have physical and non physical to do with cessation attainment and non returner ?
The relationship is non-percipient being still have body

Furthermore There are many mind-made realms not just pure abodes so buddha may refer to non pure abodes mind-made realms here

Furthermore even if you are right you need to explain how cessation attainner that is even more subtle than formless attainner reborn in mind-made realms not formless realm

Furthermore what do gods in pure abodes do there ? If you think it’s serenity and insight practices then you are not right because only if you have developed both insight and serenity you can attain cessation attainment the buddha even said that you have developed ethics, immersion and wisdom

An5.166
Mendicants, take a mendicant who is accomplished in ethics, immersion, and wisdom

Now the non percipient being don’t do anything there I think they achieve temporary nibbana which is contactless,feelingless, consciousnessless,perceptionless, intentionless and sufferingless when their good merit is empty, feeling or equanimity feeling will arise in them so they fall from that plane

That’s why you should not delighting with nibbana or consider nibbana as self

What does accomplished in ethics, immersion and wisdom mean ?

An3.73
Then a noble disciple—accomplished in ethics, immersion, and wisdom—realizes the undefiled freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom in this very life

Mn12
Just as a mendicant accomplished in ethics, immersion, and wisdom would reach enlightenment in this very life, such is the consequence, I say

So you don’t need pure abodes at all you won’t even need to do anything at all if you are accomplished in those 3 And only in non percipient realm you don’t do anything at all Either physically or mentally

I hope I am clear enough and you see all of my 9 edits here, in the future I will propose that a thread can be locked while it’s being edited so you don’t reply to previous edit but the current edit, metta to you I hope you get to the supreme sanctuary :pray::pray:

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