Is nibbana achieved or discovered?

The Watercooler
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Some people have the opinion that when the fires of sensual desire, aversion and delusion are blown out, or when the kilesa are expunged, or when ignorance no longer turns the wheel of dependent origination, then Nibbana with be achieved. In other words, Nibbana is the cessation of these processes.

Another group of people have the view that Nibbana exists (a state, a sphere) and must be discovered by cleaning the heart of Kilesa so that only the pure heart remains.

For several reasons, I don’t find the first opinion to be credible. For example, Nibbana is a timeless Dhamma but, if one believes that it is achieved only after the fires have been blown out, then Nibbana would have a start date i.e., the time the fires went out. If it has a start date, then it must be impermanent as all phenomena that arise must pass away. It would therefore seem self-evident that this view cannot be correct.

Furthermore, it is said that the first three stages of Ariya glimpse Nibbana immediately after their path moment. If Nibana is only achieved after the fires have been blown out, then, for these practitioners, Nibbana still does not exist and so how could they possibly glimpse it?

On the other hand, if Nibbana is like a buried treasure, then rather than achieving Nibbana it is discovered instead. This would be like finding a treasure that has always existed and always will (timeless) but not yet seen. The dirt that covers the treasure would be like the Kilesa and ignorance would be like someone throwing the dirt back in the hole faster that we can dig it out. The trick would be to dig the hole with wisdom faster that ignorance can re-fill it. When the treasure is fully uncovered, there would be no need to dig anymore. The glimpse of Nibbana for those Ariyas would be through a tiny parting of the dirt before ignorance filled it in again. Furthermore, the existence of the treasure would not be dependent on the date if its discovery.

I know those would believe that Nibbana is “achieved” will have lots of Sutta references about the matter. I do not doubt the Sutta references, only their interpretation.

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This topic has already been discussed many times on this forum (and outside this forum). If you wish to learn more it would be best to start with those discussions!

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Just assuming for the sake of argument that nibbana is a state/discovered. Is it still possible to end the 5-khanda process, to have the total cessation of all experience?

Like, could you have eternal Nibbanic consciousness, but also the option to end all consciousness for those who want that?

Can both options, eternal consciousness and full cessation, be available at the same time? Or are these mutually exclusive?

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Namo Buddhaya!

I’ll give a simile

Suppose a man was thirsty, walking through a desert, to him another would give water. The thirsty man would then drink the water and thus quenching his thirst.

Now we could say that the drinking of water is a quenching of of thirst, a removal of thirst.

Having drank one is thirstless, with thirst removed.

If there was no water then the quenching of thirst wouldn’t be possible.

One could say that in this simile the water is a destroyer of thirst, a destruction of thirst, a removal of thirst.

And it would be fair to say that the ultimate goal of the thirsty man is to be without thirst, not the drinking of water which is rather a means to an end.

This good dhamma-training is very similar.

The ultimate goal is arahantship, to be without taints, having removed the taints.

One who has attained arahantship has attained the removal of taints.

Directing the mind to the Deathless is a directing of mind to the destruction of taints.

The destruction of taints is a removal of taints

The unmade element is Deathless, and is that in dependence on what the cessation occurs, in dependence on what one directs the mind to the deathless, if it didn’t exist then ir wouldn’t be possible to direct the mind to it, the stilling of all constructions, nibbana [extinguishment].

And the ultimate goal of the delusional man is to be without delusion, not the attaining of cessation as directing of mind to the Deathless, this is rather a means to an end.

“Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion.’ Of what now, venerable sir, is this the designation?”

“This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way.”

When this was said, that bhikkhu said to the Blessed One: “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the Deathless, the Deathless.’ What now, venerable sir, is the Deathless? What is the path leading to the Deathless?”

“The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the Deathless. This Noble Eightfold Path is the path leading to the Deathless; that is, right view … right concentration.” SuttaCentral

“And what, Ānanda, is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters? Here, with seclusion from the acquisitions, with the abandoning of unwholesome states, with the complete tranquillization of bodily inertia, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion.

“Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self. He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.’ If he is steady in that, he attains the destruction of the taints.
SuttaCentral

“Reverend, they speak of dhamma apparent in the present life’. In what way did the Buddha speak of dhamma apparent in the present life?”

“First, take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures … enters and remains in the first absorption. To this extent the Buddha spoke of the dhamma apparent in the present life in a qualified sense. …

Furthermore, take a mendicant who, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end. To this extent the Buddha spoke of the dhamma apparent in the present life in a definitive sense.”
SuttaCentral

Reverend, they say that ‘extinguishment is apparent in the present life’. In what way did the Buddha say extinguishment is apparent in the present life?”

“First, take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures … enters and remains in the first absorption. To this extent the Buddha said that extinguishment is apparent in the present life in a qualified sense. …

Furthermore, take a mendicant who, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end. To this extent the Buddha said that extinguishment is apparent in the present life in a definitive sense.”
SuttaCentral

In short

Having rid oneself of wrong views on trains for calm & dispassion.

Then comes a time when the mind turns away from the constructed states, and towards the Deathless, cessation, nibbana. This attainment of cessation transcends all other meditative attainments and can last up to seven days, or just a short time. And one’s taints are destroyed by the seeing with wisdom.

If one emerges as an arahant, good, if not an arahant then more work needs to be done by developing the same qualities.

The seeing with wisdom is a means to an end, the goal of the holy life is no other than arahantship.

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…… careful with the usage of words here, anything that exists must have an end so this doesn’t apply to Nibbana…… as it is permanent …… this also means, it is always there!

Be it achieved or discovered…… either of them works…… just don’t get too tired down to specific wording as all words are not the truth, …… it’s merely a raft …… the actual direct experience is what you need to see it for yourself!

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it is a good simile but I’d frame it slightly differently.

As humans we are thirsty, this is an inherent part of the human condition (suffering and First Noble Truth)

The goal is to be without thirst. Even this much already requires being aware of the 1st NT and the second factor, Right intention/motivation, of the N8FP

One knows (see below) that water will quench the thirst (Right View and 2nd &3rd NTs)

In order to actually quench the thirst one needs to both get the water AND to drink it (Noble 8 fold path and 4th NT - the work and training - achievement of goal)

When this is all done then one is without thirst - Nibbana

So in this simile, being without thirst is the ‘state’ or ‘element’ of Nibbbana - but really it is not so much a ‘state’ as such, but rather an absence of suffering/thirst. It is both discovered (if you are the first to spontaneously discover this ie no-one knew you had to obtain and drink water to get rid of thirst before you - you discovered ‘the overgrown path in the jungle’) and achieved if you follow the Path. If you got the Path directions from someone else who tells you how to do it - you got your knowledge from someone rather than discovering it all yourself. Basically the difference between the Buddha/Pacceka Buddhas and Arahants. However, words can be used to represent many different aspects and you could still say that the experience is discovered because you can’t be told what it is like - that is pretty meaningless. Just as @Emptiness said. You might intellectually conceive of what ‘to be without thirst’ (Nibbana) might be like, but you can never know it without experiencing it for yourself. Just like if you follow a real jungle path that you know will lead to a golden city… you will never really know it until you are there yourself, no matter how good a description is given.

So using this simile, Nibbana is knowing and extinguishing thirst. Thirst continues as long as one has a body. But because one has a water bottle in ones hand at all times, one is never thirsty any more. You have both changed perception/eliminated delusion (now seeing things as they truly are - not through a ‘lens’ of defilements), and know how to deal with conditions skillfully, minimizing suffering as much as is possible. This is the type of remnant dukkha that is still experienced simply by continued existence with the aggregates intact - contact = suffering. Once the body dies - parinibbana, no more thirst can ever arise. So the discussion of ‘alternate existing states’ can be very misleading.

(I realise that taking this simile so far has limitations and is not exact, but it’s still useful, its a pointing).

So there is some food for thought :slightly_smiling_face:

Wishing you all a beautiful, happy, peaceful and kind day :slightly_smiling_face: :pray: :sunflower:

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“Some people” here means ALL the EBT sources.
It is UNAMBIGUOUSLY given as the definition of the goal of the buddhist path at DN2, and then again HUNDREDS of times throught DN, MN, SN, AN, DA, MA, SA, EA.

“Another group” hear means some other tradition that defines the goal of the path DIFFERENTLY to the earliest buddhist texts.

You are of course free to believe whatever you want, but the earliest records we have of buddhism are absolutley clear: the first description of Nibanna is the canonically correct one.

This reasoning is faulty and the argument is invalid.

I recommend studying texts around basic logic and critical thinking and intro to philosophy books until you understand the distinction between use/mention, subject/object and states of affairs versus propositions.

When you have developed the neccesary understanding of these things I recommend you read the suttas again, paying special attention to DN1 DN2 DN9 and MN72.

The idea that extinguishment (of the 3 fuels) is an “object” or an “eternal element” is scholastic nonsense.

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Would you care to expand upon this claim, stating at length what you’ve stated here only in brief? Or at least name the alleged fallacy. Without greater specificity, it might seem that you yourself are committing the ipse dixit fallacy.

:face_with_raised_eyebrow:

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Thank you to all those who have replied to this topic.

I think that I may have been unclear in stating my understanding of this topic. I fully agree with all the quotes from the various suttas. They are all valid. What I disagree with is some of the interpretations of those statement in the suttas. I agree with the notion of blowing out the fires and expunging the kilesa and conquering ignorance as leading to Nibbana. However, I don’t agree that this “terminus” in these processes is Nibbana. My understanding is that reaching the terminus allows Nibbana to be seen/discovered/experienced, or whatever inadequate words one may use… This is a subtle but important difference.

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If you purify gold in a skillfull way, perfectly, the natural result is pure gold. Ofcourse you did not make, create, produce the gold atoms. You only removed the defilements. Likewise, if one removes defilements in the mind one does not make, create, produce peace, emptiness, the signless, the desireless, the uninclined, that what cannot be seen arising, ceasing and changing.

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Hyperbole! :slight_smile:

But seriously, ill try:

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Exactly! So the end of the cleaning process is not the gold. But without the cleaning process the gold will remain hidden. The cleaning process is therefore not an end in itself, it simply allows the gold that was already there to be seen.

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It is seeing with wisdom that ends the defilements (paññāya cassa disvā āsavā parikkhīṇā honti; MN 111).

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There is also the aspect that the cleansed gold has very different characteristic then the defiled gold. For example, pure gold is wieldy, can be easily turned into jewelry. Defiled gold is brittle.

The same with mind. The pure mind is extremely wieldy, pliant, free, and unburdened, while the defiled mind is not really easy to apply because it is still governed by defilements. it has, as it were a will of its own. And a defiled mind is burdened.

So, the cleanings reveals the great qualities of a mind without defilements.

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Nibanna is not a “timeless dhamma” it is a word meaning “extinguishment” or extinguished, as when a fire has gone out. There actually is a time on your watch when the fire was extinguished, and after that it was true to say of the fire “it is extinguished”. This does not mean there is a “timeless un-fire called Extinguished”. It just means extinguished.

Nibbana is not the “achievemnet” of a “state” or “perception”, it is a word, for something being extinguished.

What is extinguished is the asavas.

Having freed themselves from any attachment to what is seen, heard, felt, thought, the buddha extinguished the asavas, and thensforth was not determined/commensurable/understandable/condtioned by anything seen heard felt or thought.

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What i most wanted to point out with the simile is that several things are qualified to be called extinguishment or a removal of thirst. There, namely the drinking of water is a removal of thirst and the becoming without thirst is an extinguishment of thirst.

An exemplary circumstance is that one might drink just little but not becoming fully satiated. Thus one would have attained one type of quenching on account of having drank some water which is here an extinguishment of thirst, but because one’s thirst is not fully extinguished one has to keep drinking as to realize the ultimate goal which is the extinguishment as in becoming thirstless.

There are these two circumstances.

Yes, this seeing with wisdom due to having attained cessation, deathless, nibbana.

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Nibbana is akālikaṁ (AN 3.55).

akālika
adjective

  1. not dependent on time; not limited to a particular time

But there is ( Ud 8.3).

The suttas don’t say the asava are nibbana-ed. The suttas say the asava are destroyed (khaya). For example, MN 37 says:

Not grasping, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished.

Anupādiyaṁ na paritassati, aparitassaṁ paccattaññeva parinibbāyati:

They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’

‘khīṇā jāti, vusitaṁ brahmacariyaṁ, kataṁ karaṇīyaṁ, nāparaṁ itthattāyā’ti pajānāti.

That’s how I briefly define a mendicant who is freed through the ending of craving, who has reached the ultimate end, the ultimate sanctuary from the yoke, the ultimate spiritual life, the ultimate goal, and is best among gods and humans.”

Ettāvatā kho, devānaminda, bhikkhu saṅkhittena taṇhāsaṅkhayavimutto hoti accantaniṭṭho accantayogakkhemī accantabrahmacārī accantapariyosāno seṭṭho devamanussānan”ti.

Seeing with wisdom is explained in SN 22.59. Seeing impermanence, etc.

Seeing this, a learned noble disciple grows disillusioned with form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness. Being disillusioned, desire fades away. When desire fades away they’re freed. When they’re freed, they know they’re freed.

SN 22.59

Meditating in this way, they don’t grasp at anything in the world. Not grasping, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished.

MN 37; MN 140; SN 12.51

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It makes no sense to talk about Nibbana as a word. The meaning of Nibbana is, ofcourse, not the same as the meaning of the word. It is where the word points to. That actual situation in which defilements are really extinguished. To know what that is, we have to be there, right? Maybe we must stop speculating for once and do our homework :slight_smile:

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There is qualified and definitive usage of the expression.

What you have quoted is a seeing with wisdom in a qualified sense but this is not the seeing with wisdom by which ones taints are removed, but it is conducive to that attainment.

The seeing of wisdom which removes the taints is the attaining of cessation.

Furthermore, take a mendicant who, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end. To this extent the Buddha spoke of the dhamma apparent in the present life in a definitive sense.”
SuttaCentral

Furthermore, take a mendicant who, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end. To this extent the Buddha said that extinguishment is apparent in the present life in a definitive sense.”
SuttaCentral

Why not, venerable sir? Here, venerable sir, whenever we want, by completely surmounting the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, we enter upon and abide in the cessation of perception and feeling. And our taints are destroyed by our seeing with wisdom. Venerable sir, this is another superhuman state, a distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones, a comfortable abiding, which we have attained
SuttaCentral

If you read the mn64 which i’ve already referenced therein you can see the progression

First one considers the drawbacks of the constructed phenomena

“Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self.

This requires a seeing with wisdom as in understanding that this is so but one’s fetters are not yet removed by that alone.

Furthermore, due to that very development one attains the turning away from those states and towards the cessation attainment

He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.’ If he is steady in that, he attains the destruction of the taints.

Therefore when talking about a seeing with wisdom the suttas constantly differentiate between a) seeing the drawbacks which is a seeing conducive to the attainment of the cessation, and b) the attainment of cessation, which is a seeing with wisdom by which ones taints are destroyed.

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There is a lot of confusion because the unmade element is referred to as nibbana and arahantship is referred to as nibbana.

One has to understand that these are two different referrents for the word nibbana. One of them is constructed with delusion removed and one is unconstructed which is effectively a removal of taints for one who sees it.

It is rather amazing how people wrestle with the texts when ascribing the characteristics of one thing onto another.