Is word of Buddha lost in the noise and translations?

[cdpatton]

@sumants

dhatu is understood by most in India as metal (now a days) very clear, which is kind of element. You can ask a question which dhatu are you made of? so element wins over here

Yes, and that meaning is common in ancient Buddhist texts, like with the four and six elements. It has other uses that are less obvious, though. Sometimes it means something more like domain (as in the three dhatus, or the dhatu of nibbana), and sometimes it seems to mean factors or components as with the dhatus of escape or the eighteen dhatus. Translating it as “element” sometimes sounds a bit awkward.

@sumants

So the first option here makes translation timeless, second can be used by interpreters and teachers to explain first point and sutta further

Yes. I think the first option isn’t possible over thousands of years. Civilization and the day-to-day lives of people changes enough that old stories, in particular, become alien to them. Who today actually knows what it was like to travel in a caravan across a desert in west India or Central Asia? Not many readers can do more than imagine it a bit, or they remember something from a movie depicting it. But it’s not part of life today.

[sumants]

@cdpatton

Yes. I think the first option isn’t possible over thousands of years. Civilization and the day-to-day lives of people changes enough that old stories, in particular, become alien to them

Well that is true, though given a context we are good in imagining what happened when we were not there, this is what we can picturize in mind if its explained
Other way second option is ever changing, endless task to keep up translations with current generation understanding as Ajahn Brahm says suttas need to be translated and explained to what current audience can understand or know, the similes targeted to current generation.

[stephen]

It very much seems like what you are speaking about is commentary on texts and translations, not the source texts.

[sumants]

@stephen

It very much seems like what you are speaking about is commentary on texts and translations, not the source texts.

Not really coming back to original point of this discussion here

@sumants

We need to cleanse it further like the project Authenticity was done to verify authenticity of sutta

1. We should mark all authentic sutta with a “Authentic Badge” using what process was followed here
2. Remove the noise, the repetitions which were included for purpose of rhyming and verbally remembering, reciting suttas as mentioned in Dependent Origination workshop at BSWA
3. Verify with parallels in other languages(at least 3-5) to ensure same message is delivered, in case of disagreement need deep dive into definitions and rules in Vinaya can help on conclusion
4. Verify translations to particular language and publish them like a white paper, may be process like this will help.
5. Outcome should be one translation in particular language with many authors, reviewers contributors, different views clearly indicated so none is left behind, with references and examples for further clarification

And there can be captions and footnotes on providing relevant context, just think about how sutras were described it ordinary people before it should be done the same way, without this context and culture aspect translation loose the point.

[sumants]

Few of the examples I would like to share here, I don’t know where this thought struck in my mind and went on details in finding the meanings to understand DO properly, discussed here How to penetrate Dependent Co-arising?

• To understand DO we need a start and the best start should be about world, what is the world, what people do here, why nibbana and what is dhamma / teaching for DO

• Ignorance addressed in much details page 13, and page 14 showing if you switch sides automatically the waterfall will take you to wisdom and nibbana - page 13

• jāti – Rebirth including the Rebirth by choice and realms connection from here till bhava - page 36

• How Thirst leads to Unskillful Activities and Unhappiness, to understand this better lets first set the context, with each eon, universe expands and then contracts in cycles. There comes a time when, after a very long period has passed page 32

• khandhā - a broken piece, section and (5 khandhās are the sections of personality we take up as self)
  akhaṇḍa unbroken, entire, whole, in -kārin (sikkhāya) fulfilling or practising the whole of (the commandments)
  I see previous one has been used at many places but it looks like later one would have been very clear to someone 2600 years ago in the given context and they mean different, when we look at it this way the meaning changes so something we take it as me or mine(akhanda), is broken into 5 pieces or sections by buddha saying this is not mine. - page 21

• Sankhāra – in the widest sense the “world of phenomena”, everything (all conditioned things 5 khandhās) which have been made up by pre-existing causes, produces kamma
  Pre-context(16 Sanskara - sankhāra - saṃskāra, - sacraments, rites of passage, in a human being’s life) and the process of rituals with karma and ahuti very common in those days and still now page 7,22

• upādāna - āhuti - oblation, sacrifice, performed with everything I do by mind, speech or body - page 33

@sumants

Please find attached pdf with all of these and more here, which I am compiling together and will include more on N8P
How to penetrate Dependent Co-arising.pdf (3.4 MB)

Pls provide your feedback and let me know if this makes sense

[hwwbtr]

There’s a great possiblity. But if you speak more than one language you should notice that there are expressions in probably every language, that cannot be directly translated into another language. Meaning you actually have to understand their underlying culture and context too. That said, also remember that everyone can become an arahat. In a billion years or lifetimes maybe. I’m not saying that the probability for us to become a Buddha is as slim as winning the lottery. Which it probably is. But I’m saying that we in any case should and encouraged to pursue enlightenment on our own. Intellectually or through meditation or first hand experiences.

[sumants]

One more example I recently came across, this is very very sweet and full of wisdom, none of its 6 translations on sutta central are near perfection, the one by S. N. Goenka nails it, having said that I am not at all picking upon one translator is better then others, the languages have evolved and changed over time and so the meaning of words, to get right context of historic languages is not trivial like substituting words

DHP 153

Udānavatthu
Anekajātisaṁsāraṁ,
sandhāvissaṁ anibbisaṁ;
Gahakāraṁ gavesanto, Variant: Gahakāraṁ → gahakārakaṁ (bj, sya-all, pts1ed, pts2ed)
dukkhā jāti punappunaṁ.

Gahakāraka diṭṭhosi,
puna gehaṁ na kāhasi;
Sabbā te phāsukā bhaggā,
gahakūṭaṁ visaṅkhataṁ;
Visaṅkhāragataṁ cittaṁ,
taṇhānaṁ khayamajjhagā.

English Translation on sutta central

Transmigrating through countless rebirths,
I’ve journeyed without reward,
searching for the house-builder;
painful is birth again and again.

I’ve seen you, house-builder!
You won’t build a house again!
Your rafters are all broken,
your roof-peak is demolished.
My mind, set on demolition,
has reached the end of craving.

Translation by S. N. Goenka

Once enlightened Buddha sees divine vision, the countless past lives in this world
I kept on running without stopping towards the death, can't wait at all, without achieving anything
Many lives kept on searching the creator of this house the body and the new body in next life
Kept getting born again and again ending up with more and more suffering
Now the creator(Avijjā) is seen, he can't build new house again (no more rebirth)
I have destroyed all building materials, which are required for creating new house the sankhāra
My mind is now free from all old sankhāra 
And the craving is removed from the roots, (due to equanimity it can never arise) destroyed for ever