Thread for discussing chapter 15 of Warder for the class on November 7th.
Meeting ID: 829 5896 1475
Passcode: anicca
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Hi everyone. Iām looking forward to continuing with the class over the coming weeks. My plan is to continue at least up until just before Christmas. Then, weāll review and see where we are.
I know many of you in this discussion forum have talked about being āoverwhelmedā (or similar wording) with the amount of material that has been covered and is expected to be covered each week. And I totally agree, and especially so as Warder seems to be packing more into each lesson now. So we will now all take a deep breath and slow down a little and review several key grammar aspects that have been introduced in the last few lessons. [I can already hear some of you saying āPhew!ā]
My plan for next week. Please do read all the lesson material in Warder Lesson 15, but donāt feel you need to do all the exercises. Just try and translate as best you can the Passage for Reading from this chapter. We will catch up with the rest of the exercises the following week.
I would like to also do a quick review of relative-correlative constructions (from Lesson 12), tappurisa compounds (from Lesson 13), and comparison with dvandva compounds (from Lesson 15), and finally a review of the optative (from Lesson 14). These are all very common elements in PÄli and must be understood by all to have any competence in PÄli translation.
I think all of that will keep us busy enough!
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Phewā¦ as you predictedā¦
Then, ā¦ 
I wish you would do the review before we move on (subjunctive mood in English).
Sorry to see you go, Alison and Hugo, but I completely understand your dilemma. Iām full of admiration that you have persisted this long staying up so late at night in the the land of the long white cloud! 
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Hello John,
So up until Christmas the class day and time will remain at Tuesday 9pm AEDT (Sydney time)?
Thank you so much for continuing these classes! 
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Yes, we will start the lesson with the review as indicated, Dheerayupa. But still a good idea for everyone to prepare with the material from Lesson 15.
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I was planning to start from Lesson 1 to be ready for your review. Iām not sure one week would be enough. 
But thatās ok. Iāll try. 
Thank you.
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I was hoping for a week off dealing with new material too.
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I should link my website again PÄli Course. I just added more (and you wonāt need to hard refresh anymore). Although the primary use is memorizing, it can be used to review parts of the recent lessons, but the earlier lessons (1-5) are completely fleshed out. Give feedback if you wish, I canāt totally tell how usable it is.
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Question 1:
tassa evaį¹ jÄnato evaį¹ passato kÄmÄsavÄ pi cittaį¹ vimuccati bhavÄsavÄ pi cittaį¹ vimuccati avijjÄsavÄ pi cittaį¹ vimuccati
My Answer: For one knowing and seeing thus, the mind is freed from the outflowing of sensual pleasure, the outflowing of becoming, and the outflowing of ignorance.
Ajahn Brahmali: When he is knowing thus (and) seeing thus, the mind is freed from the outflowing of sensual pleasure, the mind is freed from the outflowing of existence, and (pi) the mind is freed from the outflowing of ignorance.
I missed picking up that tassa evaį¹ jÄnato evaį¹ passato is a genitive absolute construction. I had tassa, jÄnato, & passato as m. singular dative. Is this OK too?
Question 2:
Not-memorizing that speech, I left.
My Answer: Nāahaį¹ taį¹ bhÄsitaį¹ uggaį¹hÄmi, nikkhamiį¹
Ajahn Brahmali: taį¹ vÄcam (or bhÄsitam or vacanam) anuggaį¹hanto pakkÄmiį¹.
If you were to translate my version back into english would it be: āI do not learn that speech, I left?ā
Question 3:
Why (is) this unexplained by the recluse Gotama?
My answer: Ko ayaį¹ abyÄkato samanena gotamena?
Ajahn Brahmali: kasmÄ idaį¹ samanena Gotamena avyÄkataį¹?
In Ajahn Brahmaliās answer kasmÄ is in the ablative, idaį¹ is in the nominative, and avyÄkataį¹ is in the accusativeā¦ is that right? 
I seem to have issues getting the case of the participles correctā¦
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Q1.
I had tassa, jÄnato, & passato as m. singular dative. Is this OK too?
Yes
Q2.
If you were to translate my version back into english would it be: āI do not learn that speech, I left?ā
That would be a literal rendering, but PÄli doesnāt generally put two main verbs in the same sentence like this. The first would generally be put as an absolutive [Not having learned that speech ā¦], or as a participle as the example requests.
Q3.
KasmÄ, is literally āfrom whatā, more generally translated as āwhyā. The ko in your solution means āwhatā.
And idaį¹ (neut) should be used instead of ayaį¹ (masc) as you did, since the āthisā in question is non-specific. Yes, it is nominative, and avyÄkataį¹ is also nominative - neuter agreeing with idaį¹.
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Ok, going way back to Lesson 1 and @acala 's question about upasaį¹kamati versus upasaį¹kamati. Bhante said:
Before the gutteral consonants (k, kh, g, gh), the nasal sound is spelled į¹ . In Romanized Pali we typically spell such conjuncts as į¹ k, į¹ g, and so on.
However the sound is exactly the same as į¹. It is technically possible to spell the same words į¹k, į¹g. Thus sometimes you might see saį¹gha instead of saį¹ gha.
Well, thankfully I revisited Lesson 1 for the q&a thread. I had previously spent, oh, about 20 minutes trying to solve this. The prompt was Lesson 14ās reading passage with the verb conjugation upasaį¹kamissÄma. (Yes, Iām working on Lesson 14ās reading passage because I then need to work on Lesson 15ās reading passage, which follows on Lesson 14ās reading passage! 
)
The dilemma was that I couldnāt find the present tense verb in the DPD using the spelling upasaį¹kamati. This is how Warder spells it on page 11. And I had no luck with the PTS online dictionary either. I simply havenāt been studying long enough to recognize the į¹ for į¹ (and vice versa).
OKā¦so just to be clear: Warder spells it differently than the DPD. Make a note. However, the DPD spells the absolutive upasaį¹kamitvÄ. I donāt understand why, based on Bhanteās answer above. It seems like DPD is being inconsistent.
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Good! Iām planning to go through this passage during next Tuesdayās class.
On the nasal consonant before g, gh, k, and kh issue, all I can say is that editors of romanised PÄli scripts have created a nightmare of inconsistency!
saį¹
gha is absolutely correct
saį¹gha is absolutely incorrect (please never write it this way)
sangha, saį¹gha, saį¹gha are often used by editors and are okay but not really correct. Will explain in more detail on Tuesday as well.
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Yes, DPD is inconsistent. Bhante had suggested that I could let DPD know and ask them to simply link both spellings, which I have done.
Also it is upasaį¹ kamati not upasaį¹kamati.
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Yes, exactly same principle as I mentioned above with saį¹ gha, not saį¹gha.
Btw for anyone hasnāt figured out why itās like that (I donāt think Iāve seen an explanation for this):
Say the word āpuntā and take note of where your tongue is during the ānā. Now say the word āsunkā and note there. For me at least, the contact of the tongue is at the teeth / dental in punt, and in the back / guttural for sunk. This is because t in punt is dental and k in sunk is guttural, and the physically closest nasal sound is used (Also, onion for Ʊ and maybe turn for į¹)
upasaį¹ kamati is like sunk, and the tongue is in the back, and we made that sound without thinking about it. So you donāt have to memorize what į¹ matches to per word, just hum as you wish, naturally.
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Why is candimasuriyÄ plural but SÄriputtamoggallÄnaį¹ singular?? They didnāt have multiple moons back then, did they???
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full moon, quarter moon, new moon, August moon, Vesak moon?
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