John Kelly Pali course 2023: Warder lesson 15a

Thank you immensely for this! I was wondering…the graph/picture is very cool :sunglasses:

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Your kind notification to them about that should also lead them to fix the current aorist spelling. This causes the aorist not to show up in the conjugation table with all the other tenses.

Aw… no need to be embarrassed! I also did exactly the same thing, I spelled upasaṅkamati as upasaṇkamati in my post asking Bhante about why I couldn’t find upasaṁkamati…

… but that’s also why I notice these things now. I guess it tends to stick in our mind once we make a mistake.


Maybe these charts would be helpful:

I have both in a pdf if needed.


Thank you bran, I find this website very helpful!

I am also grateful to you, @johnk for continuing the course! I think it’s a good idea to repeat a few lessons and topics first.


Just finished combining Warder and Meiland.

Question on Dvanda Compounds

Warder gives examples:

candimasuriyā (plural) = the sun and the moon
Sāriputtamoggallānaṃ (neuter singular) = Moggallana and Sariputta

His translation: the second noun comes first in English, but Meiland gives the following examples:

  • dhamma-vinayo = The teaching and the monastic discipline
  • jarā-maraṇaṃ = Old-age and death

The English translation order follows what’s written in Pali.

Lesson 15 - Notes.pdf (297.4 KB)

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I’m not understanding your question- a dvanda compound expresses two items together.
In English we would use ‘and’ to join them.
There is no case relationship.

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Sorry if I sounded confusing. What I meant was:

Warder: candimasuriyā = the sun and the moon (even though literally = the moon, the sun)

Meiland: * dhamma-vinayo = The teaching and the monastic discipline (and literally = the teaching and the monastic discipline)

My question is: when we translate, how can we show which word should come first?

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It wouldn’t seem to matter, but translating the items in the order they’re presented seems normal.


Thank you very much :pray: :sunflower: :lotus:

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Does Thai have conventions about this, or is it a case-by-case thing like in English?

English has lexical conventions that are sometimes a bit lax and very strong, and that apply similarly to compound words and fixed noun phrases, eg we just don’t say *headbed, *butter and bread, *the moon and the sun; it has to be bedhead bread and butter, etc.

But others aren’t crucial. EG chairs and tables, tables and chairs or they have different meanings, EG bookcase vs casebook.

It comes down to have a good feel for the language you’re translating into.


I would not say ‘bookcase’ is a dvanda, rather a dative tappurisa?

What is a bedhead?

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In US it’s a headboard.


Thank you.
In the US, ‘bedhead’ also refers to a hairstyle that is or resembles the look of one’s hair right out of bed. Perhaps that’s a bahubbihi!


:rofl::rofl:. ………………………………….

I don’t remember hearing that. Love it !!

I didn’t intend to imply either of these. It makes no sense to me to analyse English words in terms of Pali (except as egs for teaching purposes); and English doesn’t even have a dative inflection :woman_shrugging: so ‘dative tappurisa’ for ‘bookcase’ makes no sense at all.

My point was that these sort of equivalences between languages can’t be expected, and that each language has to be accepted on its own terms. This is the challenge of translation.

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Dear John and Bhante @sujato, thank you so much for these classes and the “extension course”! I had planned to continue, but had to miss the last couple due to travel and just havent had time to catch up (and cant make tonight either due to a different conflicting meeting). I will have to bow out of future classes but will be revising over the Dec break and look forward to the next course when I can start from a higher base!

Thanks for all your efforts over these months :slight_smile:


Sorry to see you go, Hasantha!
I look forward to seeing you again for a new Pāli class in the new year.

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The link says:

Invalid Meeting ID

Take a break and wait for John to start the meeting. It’s a bit early yet. :wink:

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Everyone who is attending class tonight, please note NEW zoom meeting room

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