John Kelly Pali course 2023: Warder lesson 16a

Thread for discussing chapter 16 of Warder for the class on November 21st.

Meeting ID: 829 5896 1475
Passcode: anicca

Lesson 16 is quite a long lesson, counting both the grammatical material and the exercises, and we certainly won’t get through it all in one week. Especially at my slightly slower pace of teaching than Bhante’s.

Also, at the start of next Tuesday’s class I want to go through the Lesson 15 ‘passage for reading’ together. Please be prepared to translate any part of it in class. I know we are all keen to hear more about the escapades of our two hemp-carrying friends!

Then, we will go through the Lesson 16 grammatical material - Locative Case, Future Passive Participles, and Kammadhāraya Compounds, and I hope still have time to start on the exercises in that chapter too.


Are we totally done with 15 Pali >Eng ? (I know we spent a few minutes in extra time on one of the items; wasn’t sure if we were returning at all)

And not doing the Eng > Pali at all, right?

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Hi Karunā. We will definitely start with the lesson 15 Passage for Reading, and do perhaps a few selections from some of the other L.15 exercises. I am putting less emphasis on Eng → Pāli since I think that is a lot less important than the reverse. And we just don’t have time in a short class once a week!

It made sense to do all the exercises in full in the earlier Warder chapters, but as we advance in the book, the exercises are getting longer and longer and time is short in class. Especially as I noticed a number of people needed to leave class after about 70 mins of it.

You all have answer keys available (mine and Ajahn Brahmali’s) and any of the exercises will get addressed directly by me, by students asking a particular question.

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OK, that’s great! Just asking because I did have questions about some of the Pāli>Eng - similar to the one that was asked in class. (Not a specific question about a specific item, but more generally like - “how did we get from this to this?” Like when “na” is ten words away from the verb it’s negating, or a random etaṃ/iḍam is separated from its corresponding noun by a massive distance. What an eva or kho is doing.) If we’re not doing them in full, then maybe it’s better to post the ones specifically I’m thinking of online ahead of class? (I wasn’t sure if you were totally done with 15 or what)

Thanks so much!!


You can bring these sorts of questions up in class, or post them here. No problem either way. As to this specific question about the long separation of words sometimes found in Pāli sentences, get used to it! :grinning: It is very typical, I’m afraid. Part of the fun of decoding a Pāli sentence.

What an eva or kho is doing

Sometimes nothing really, apart from a little bit of emphasis, and can be just left out of whatever you are translating. Let’s talk about this in class next week - remind me.


Question about the order of the locative. (yes, I’m aware that word order in Pali is fluid, but…)

Warder gives ‘Examples of the use of the locative’

The ‘locative’ is all over the place

dhammā raññe = "qualities in a king
Nālandāyaṃ viharanto = dwelling in Nalanda
rukkhamūle nisinnaṃ = seated at the foot of a tree
devatā ākāse = deities in the sky

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My general rule of thumb is to inverse the order w.r.t. English. In which case: “kingly qualities” and “sky devas”… which makes sense to me… :person_shrugging:


No special order for the locative whether before or after noun it qualifies. You’re right - it’s fluid!!


My notes (Warder and Meiland combined)

Another long lesson

Lesson 16 - Notes.pdf (1.0 MB)


Q1: Is there anything more here than just subtlety?

I discern no interpretation difference between the instrumental construction tena samayena and the locative construction tasmiṃ samaye. E.g.:

tena kno pana samayena Ānando bhagavato piṭṭhito ṭhito hoti bhagavantaṃ vījamāno (Lesson 10)
But at that time Ananda was standing behind the Blessed One fanning him.
tasmiṃ samaye vedanaṃ vedeti (Lesson 16)
he feels a sensation on that occasion

Q2: Am I correct here?

In the following example on pg. 103:
imasmiṃ ca pana veyyākaraṇasmiṃ bhaññamāne Sakkassa…

Is veyyākaraṇasmiṃ an example of a rare -as neuter noun (per Warder’s note on pg. 154), thus veyyākaraṇasmiṃ = the locative for veyyākaraṇaṃ ?

Q3: Two questions about the grammar in this phrase:

In the following example on pg. 107:
te vo bhāvetabbā
they must be developed by you

Is bhāvetabbā a future participle (masc. pl)?

  1. Assume yes; I’m confused about its use as a causative participle (if that exists) versus here as a future participle – or I’m splitting hairs.
  2. vo is instrumental (plural) here, correct?
    @Dheerayupa I combed your wonderful Lesson 16 notes but this is apparently in the 1% you didn’t cover :crazy_face:



Yes, in this context neuter.

Veyyākaraṇa (m. nt.) [=vyākaraṇa] 1. (nt.) answer, explanation, exposition

-asmim is a loc. sing. case ending. It’s going with imasmim.
The phrase seems a locative absolute with the present participle bhaññamāne.

Yes, time can be expressed using accusative, instrumental, and locative.


You mean vo as an instrumental?

Could you please point out which page so that I could go back and revise it. I was very ill with food poisoning for 3 full days. On top of my aging brain cells, the illness affected me a lot.


-tabba is the suffix for the future passive participle. It has the sense of ‘should be’, ‘must be’.

‘vo’ is a 2nd per. plu. enclitic pronoun, probably instrumental in your sentence (tumhehi).
This is laid out in table format in G&K. pp. 68-69.

Warder lists -anīya as having the same meaning, but it seems to me that -anīya means more like “fit to ___” or “good to ____” or “worth ___ing” etc. Is that right?

What does Warder mean (p.104) when he says the future passive participle ‘is formed with the same suffix as the present participle’? On p.46 the present participle suffixes are stated to be nt or mana. I can’t see any hint or sign of an ‘nt’ or a ‘mana’ on p. 105 where lots of f.p.p’s are listed!

Also, what is meant (on p.104 again) by the statement that only one unambigious use of the f.p.p was found in the Canon?

Sorry this is so close to class starting!! See youse soon :slight_smile:

Dheerayupa this is an imbedded example on pg. 107, which I don’t think is the type of example you include in your notes. So sorry for your illness.


In fact, I always try to include everything.

Thank you so much :heart: :pray:

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@stephen could you remind me … other than seeing the aorist udāpi in the sentence, I wouldn’t know the present participle bhaññamāne is actually referring to a past event.

Hi, I don’t see the aorist in the sentence fragment you wrote above. Generally, though, the loc. abs. with a present participle gives the sense of an action concurrent with the main verb.

“Typing quickly, he hoped to answer the question to the best of his ability. “