John Kelly Pali course 2023: Warder lesson 16b

Thread for discussing chapter 16 of Warder for the class on November 28th.

Meeting ID: 829 5896 1475
Passcode: anicca


I have some questions regarding the pig farmer and his dry dung:

Question 1:
Warder gives veceto as daft (Pg. 110). I can only find viceto in DPD… ?

Question 2:
ayaṃ me bahuko sukkhagūtho chaḍḍito, mamañ ca sūkarabhattaṃ

I am having trouble understanding the me and the mamaṁ.
me - is this in the 1st p sg. dative? So we have “There is much abandoned dry dung, for me.”

mamaṁ - is this in the 1st p sg. genitive? I think I was a bit confused by the fact that sūkara is in the compound - so it wasn’t obvious that the pigs were mine, I had “my pig food.”

And is sūkarabattham a tappurisa compound? The entry in DPD doesn’t make it clear

Question 3:
yan nūnāhaṃ ito sukkhagūthaṃ hareyyan ti

I had translated ito as “from here” an indeclinable adverb. Ajahn Brahmali has it as the ablative, but of what? I guess it doesn’t matter too much because in the end the translation is the same.

Question 4:
tassa antarā magge mahā akālamegho pāvassi

Is the tassa in the 3rd p masculine singular genitive pronoun? Is it literally - for him, on the way, which we could say more smoothly as on his way?

Thank you :grinning: :pray:t5: :sunflower:


Yeah… DN 23 has viceto also… Perhaps a typo in Warder? Or is this one of those “variants” I’ve been hearing so much about? :sweat_smile:


Q1. It should be viceta, I believe. Looks like a typo in Warder, but it could be a variant I’m not aware of.

Q2. Yes. Both me and mamaṃ are 1st pers sing pronouns, dative and genitive, respectively.

Q3. I would call it an indeclinable adverb. AB is splitting hairs here calling it an ablative (it’s from a Vedic ablative form itaḥ). See PED entry:
Ito Ito (indecl.) [Vedic itaḥ, abl. – adv. formation fr. pron. base *i, cp. iti, ayaŋ etc.] adv. of succession or motion in space & time “from here”. “from now”. (1) with ref. to space: (a) from here, from this, often implying the present existence (in opp. to the “other” world) It 77; Sn 271 (˚ja. ˚nidāna caused or founded in or by this existence = attabhāvaŋ sandhāy’ āha SnA 303), 774 (cutāse), 870 (˚nidāna), 1062 (from this source, i. e. from me), 1101; Pv i.57 (ito dinnaŋ what is given in this world); i.62 (i. e. manussalokato PvA 33); i.123 (= idhalokato PvA 64); Nett 93 (ito bahiddhā); PvA 46 (ito dukkhato mutti). — (b) here (with implication of movement), in phrases ito c’ ito here and there PvA 4, 6; and ito vā etto vā here & there DhA ii.80. — (2) with ref. to time: from here, from now, hence (in chronological records with num. ord. or card., with ref. either to past or future). (a) referring to the past, since D ii.2 (ito so ekanavuto kappo 91 kappas ago); Sn 570 (ito aṭṭhame, scil. divase 8 days ago SnA 457; T. reads atthami); VvA 319 (ito kira tiŋsa – kappa – sahasse); PvA 19 (dvā navuti kappe 92 kappas ago), 21 (id.), 78 (pañcamāya jātiyā in the fifth previous re – birth). — (b) referring to the future, i. e. henceforth, in future, from now e. g. ito sattame divase in a week VvA 138; ito paraŋ further, after this SnA 160, 178, 412, 549; PvA 83; ito paṭthāya from now on, henceforward J i.63 (ito dāni p.); PvA 41.

Q4. Yes


Hello everyone,
what is our homework for this week?


I think it’s the two reading passages and the Pali to English exercises.


Yes. That’s correct.


Just making sure we don’t need to have that long passage for Pali to English?

1 Like

Do you mean English to Pāli, Karuna? No, that is not expected. But, as I said above, please do have prepared both Pāli to English passages.


Oh yay, thanks! I had them - very fun!

1 Like

While it is useful for your learning to try at least some of the English to Pāli exercises, I won’t be going through them in class. It’s up to you. At the least, I would recommend looking through them and then through either (or both) of the solutions you have available - mine or AB’s.

But we will be going through the Pāli to English always. This is why you are all in this class, right? To translate frm the suttas for yourself.

From Lesson 18 onwards, these passages start to get very long indeed and we will obviously spread them over several classes.


I have been reading through the translate to Pali exercise and have paused at this item:

It seems that nāsakki … ārādhetum (AOR3sg … INFIN) means “he couldn’t satisfy”.
Have we been introduced to this use of the infinitive already? Do we have other examples?

1 Like

Ārādheti [Caus. of ā + rādh,]… — 1. to please, win favour, propitiate, convince

‘He was not able to please/convince/satisfy his mind…’

The infinitive has the sense of ‘to please’ etc.

Sakkoti to be able (in aorist = asakkhi = ‘he was able’. It is negated by the ‘na’. Na + asakkhi = nāsakkhi. )


Just in case we get to the Pali>English sentences today:

  1. so bhotā rañña vippaṭisāro na karaṇīyo

a. The so is in reference to the king - not the regret, I think? It’s addressing the king, but in the third person, like “His royal highness should not continue this regret?”
b. DPD shows karaṇīyo is in the nominative? Is this a cupola of two nominatives?
vippaṭisāro ≠ karaṇīyo

  1. na dāni tena ciraṃ jīvitabbaṃ bhavissati
    Could we walk through the periphrastic construction slowly in class? Not quite making the connection between
  • by him
  • for a long time
  • to be lived
  • it will be
1 Like

“Kammadhāraya” Compounds etc: Are these also called the same in Sanskrit? Or do Sanskrit grammarians refer to the different types of compounds with different terms?

@Karuna. I think we partially covered your questions here in class.
so goes with vippaṭisāro.
And yes, the king is being addressed in the third person as a sign of respect.
The sentence is literally “this regret is not to be done by the honourable king.”

Yes, karaṇīyo is in the nominative and it is a copula [not cupola] of two nominatives.

na dāni tena ciraṃ jīvitabbaṃ bhavissati
na (not) dāni (now) tena (by him) ciraṃ (for a long time) jīvitabbaṃ (to be lived) bhavissati (it will be)


I don’t know enough about Sanskrit to answer this, but I think, yes, it uses essentially the same compound type names - e.g. tatpuruṣa, dvandva, etc

1 Like

I don’t understand this use of copula

Isn’t vippaṭisāro na karaṇīyo an equational sentence with no copula?

You can see a brief discussion here:

Scroll down for Karmadhāraya-tatpuruṣa.


Copula - something that connects, a connecting link between a subject and a predicate.
vippaṭisāro and karaṇīyo are connected to each other, as a subject to a predicate, with the word is either implied or specified.

1 Like