I am sorry I still do not understand what the big fuss about this.
Don’t they have ordained Bhikkhunis in Sri Lanka and the UK?
The question is why Ajahn Brahm was outbound by his lineage?
1 Like
My turn to be a meddling layperson here…
I have to ask why?
Because I’m sure they know full well that there is evidence showing that these rules are added on.
I’m going to answer my own question here:
There was such a ridiculous and overblown reaction to their ordination (as if they were the first in the modern revival - which they weren’t by any means) that I think they don’t want to upset any conservative - and if I may say - ill informed - elements of the Theravada community. Both lay and ordained.
The nuns still aren’t getting the mass support the monks get. Though Dhammasara may be an exception to some degree and I’m extraordinarily proud of the Sri Lankans in Perth for getting behind them the way they have. The other “communities” in Perth - including the Thais - are also present and supportive. But, perhaps because of the presence of the Bodhi Tree sapling from Anuraddhapura or perhaps because of the presence of so many nuns originally from SL, the SLs seem to be the biggest obvious support base.
4 Likes
What fuss?
This fuss?
Oh boy…I suggest you head here and read up and come to your own conclusions…I don’t know about others, but I’m not about to start all that up again here…
There’s a lot of reading to be done on Bhante’s blog. You’ll need to set aside some time… And do a bit of a search when you get there… Good luck!!
6 Likes
I don’t speak for them and it would be better to ask them directly.
Generally, the conservative elements are opposed to bhikkhunis, no matter how they keep their rules. Following the garudhammas doesn’t help at all.
In fact, the only thing it does is that it alienates the progressive people who would like to see a modern, equal, non-discriminatory sangha, and who would be the support base for bhikkhunis.
5 Likes
Well if you want to keep me in the dark that is fine.
I am reading this issue in DW and here for last five years.
It never sinks into me.
Why can’t someone tell me in few words what this all about?
Did they give an undertaking that they are going to keep eight Garudhamma when they were ordained?
The Sri Lankans are freaking fantastic wherever you go in Australia. 3 BIG SADHUS to them. They are the primary support base in Adelaide and at Newbury too. Just be proud to be Sri Lankan 
Are they even aware of the rules? Are they bothered by them? As far as I can tell, they love having bhikkhunis and want the best for them.
All the people who asked me about the senior nuns picking up food and bowing to a 1yr bhikkhu have been Westerners. So this is the trade off, if there is one.
I don’t even think most laity are aware of the garudhammas though.
5 Likes
No… The garudhammas are not part of the ordination procedure.
5 Likes
Perhaps this is why Dhammasara is so successful - despite keeping those 8 rules - because they are so very independent and don’t have resident monks. They make their own decisions.
But this success might have contributed to a complacent laity…so glad to have them and the monks that they’ve stopped asking these questions.
Perhaps @Brahmali and @sujato, this could be the basis for the next series of workshops you do? Perhaps it could include and be co-led by some nuns too? The purpose could be to educate the rest of us about these matters and start a more proactive conversation in the community and empower the nuns to make a decision based on what is true rather than a decision based on fear of being unsupported by those who are misinformed/stubbornly and unwisely conservative. Not that I’m suggesting that the nuns are keeping the 8 out of fear - I have no right to be certain about any such claim for sure… But I do feel for all of us - and them - if they might be even a little bit… And I’d rather they kept them, knowing that they and the rest of the 4 fold assembly have had a robust and ongoing discussion first. So I’d still support them if they wanted to keep them or not keep them. But I think this kind of conversation/education needs to happen as well. Are we ready for this yet?
3 Likes
OK thanks.
You hit the nail.
Aww Sarath…that’s not right at all. 
Because truly…I would love for you to be in the light.
I’ve pointed you in the right direction. Bhante’s blog is highly informative…especially his articles on this matter.
My heart can’t bring itself to go into all this again. It’s too old and done with for me. But perhaps someone here will do what you want.
Also, I think this thread has only just been on topic… We’ve coming close to derailing it a few times I think… It’s only Laurence’s mention of bhikkhuni ordination that keeps us a bit on track here! Perhaps you would like to start up a new thread on this and relate it to the EBTs directly.
With metta
5 Likes
Do not worry, I know the whole story now.
Get rid-of-em if they require submission and DOWNWARD TURNED EYES etc. of female monastics in the company of male monastics - because they are female. That was part of the logic of creating this training opportunity for women in our community - ending discrimination. We need to go the distance as a progressive community trying to meet the U.N. millennium goals. There is no place for patriarchy in the Buddhist community inspired by ‘Ajahn Brahm’ and his monastic supporters - none! I am a father of 2 daughters and a Buddhist and this is unacceptable to me. We need to have the courage of our convictions - if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen! I think the lay community should say this loud-and-clear. Get rid of all sexist rules and regulations for good - end of story! 
10 Likes
Yes, that’s true, when we were at Dhammasara, we witnessed during lunch dana, there happened to be a visiting bhikkhu from Bodhinyana and the senior nun was in front of this bhikkhu during alms round. We were very proud and happy about this. 
5 Likes
There is a Sutta Buddha praised a monk who is not greedy for food.
2 Likes
Wel of course and female monastics with full ordination and great wisdom should be listened to with humility - given a place of respect to sit where they are comfortable and their needs looked after and, everyone should have the decency to show respect and gratitude with out any discrimination - on any basis whatsoever. This high-seat and low-seat arrangement is unacceptable IMO. As long as this mindless and unkind treatment of women continues we are all diminished - being small-minded - we need to tell it like it is.
3 Likes
Maybe, but first of all we have to get Bhante Sujato out of Taiwan. Will he emerge or not, this is the question. 
And if he emerges will he be the same person? We might be able to get him out of Taiwan, but will we get Taiwan out of him? In other words, I think he enjoys the solitude and the translation work.
In the meantime it might be better for people to educate themselves by reading some of the excellent material published on this, such as the said monk’s book called Bhikkhuni Vinaya Studies, found here. What these studies make clear is that the garudhammas are problematic for a number of reasons. Having read much of this material, my personal assessment is that bhikkhunīs should not feel bound to keep them. In fact, I feel it is better not to keep them, since they do appear very inappropriate in our modern context. On the other hand, if a bhikkhunī chooses to keep them, then I respect that too. I do voice my opinions, but usually only when I am asked.
17 Likes
I remember seeing this during dana time on retreat at Jhana Grove and what this did to my heart…I can’t tell you the feelings I had. Like a load was lifted and a lightness descended. The symbolism of what they did was very powerful. These kinds of acts make me feel the very opposite of what I feel - often without even realising it - when the weight of centuries of oppressive conditioning feel like they are bearing down upon me. It’s when I see such things, and that weight lifts, it is then that I even realise that weight had been there for so long. It’s when it lifts, when it’s gone. And I feel light. That’s when I realise that it’s been there for so long…so much a part of how I viewed myself that I didn’t even notice it…it was just part of the taken for granted, “normal” landscape.
Because I feel that I’m not backward or deformed or ill-equipped in some way. People use all manner of excuses to rationalise or justify the oppressive bits of our Religion. But no matter how much you try and interpret them with kindness, they remain oppressive. This is just how it makes me feel.
I was surprised to see the support from the Thai community for the Bhikkunis, especially because there were so many lay Thai women that seemed to go up. But I shouldn’t have been. They would have felt that lightness too.
It is the same thing that happened when we laywomen folk first heard nuns give the anumodana chant…tears…of joy and relief and hope for ourselves and our Practice. This isn’t about social justice, it’s not even about feminism. Even though both of these are valued by me. No, this is about my heart and the fact that the Sangha’s most effective way of teaching is by example.
3 Likes
Bhante, are you going to remove the eight Garudhamma from your Vinaya translation?
Of course not. I leave my opinions out of my translations. Otherwise it is no longer a translation.
7 Likes