Mind-made Body (Manomaya Kāya) and Own Body Perception

Bhante @sujato ,

In a thread from several years ago, you made the following points:

The mind-made body is not clearly defined in the early texts. However, it refers to something similar to what in Western esoteric traditions is called the “astral body” or “subtle body” (sukhumarūpa).

It’s a mental image that corresponds with the physical body. However, in the Buddhist sense, it is part of rūpa, i.e. the physical realm, even though it is created by and perceived by the mind. This is because it has physical properties like shape, position, color, etc. It takes on the same physical shape and attributes as the coarse material (oḷārika) body.

The idea is, I think, that the mind-made body is the felt or perceived body, i.e. the physical body as experienced internally. Normally we have an inner map or idea of the body which matches the externally perceived body quite well; but this is not always the case. Consider the well known phenomenon of phantom limbs. For an amputee, the phantom limb they can experience would be their mind-made body, which doesn’t completely correspond with the coarse body.

For advanced meditators, in certain cases it becomes possible to detach these two bodies much more radically, enabling the phenomena of astral projection and the like.

I’m currently doing a little research into own body perception, body-as-subject vs. body-as-object, and autoscopic phenomena (various forms of viewing one’s own body from an outside perspective, including hallucinations, out of body experiences and the like).

I already saw a possible connection between these latter phenomena and the manomaya kāya. But I always associated mmk with an outwardly projected body (used to travel to other worlds and so on). I never interpreted it as self-perception coterminous with the physical body, which is what I understand you to be saying here.

Can I ask you expound a bit more on how you’ve come to this understanding (ideally with the relevant textual support)? Thank you.

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hilation, eradication, and obliteration of an existing being on seven grounds.
Santi, bhikkhave, eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā ucchedavādā sato sattassa ucchedaṁ vināsaṁ vibhavaṁ paññapenti sattahi vatthūhi.
And what are the seven grounds on which they rely?
Te ca bhonto samaṇabrāhmaṇā kimāgamma kimārabbha ucchedavādā sato sattassa ucchedaṁ vināsaṁ vibhavaṁ paññapenti sattahi vatthūhi?

There are some ascetics and brahmins who have this doctrine and view:
Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco samaṇo vā brāhmaṇo vā evaṁvādī hoti evaṁdiṭṭhi: Variant: evaṁdiṭṭhi → evaṁdiṭṭhī (bj, pts1ed, mr)
‘This self is physical, made up of the four primary elements, and produced by mother and father. Since it’s annihilated and destroyed when the body breaks up, and doesn’t exist after death, that’s how this self becomes rightly annihilated.’
‘yato kho, bho, ayaṁ attā rūpī cātumahābhūtiko mātāpettikasambhavo kāyassa bhedā ucchijjati vinassati, na hoti paraṁ maraṇā, ettāvatā kho, bho, ayaṁ attā sammā samucchinno hotī’ti.
That is how some assert the annihilation of an existing being.
Ittheke sato sattassa ucchedaṁ vināsaṁ vibhavaṁ paññapenti.

But someone else says to them:
Tamañño evamāha:
‘That self of which you speak does exist, I don’t deny it.
‘atthi kho, bho, eso attā, yaṁ tvaṁ vadesi, neso natthīti vadāmi;
But that’s not how this self becomes rightly annihilated.
no ca kho, bho, ayaṁ attā ettāvatā sammā samucchinno hoti.
There is another self that is divine, physical, sensual, consuming solid food.
Atthi kho, bho, añño attā dibbo rūpī kāmāvacaro kabaḷīkārāhārabhakkho.
You don’t know or see that.
Taṁ tvaṁ na jānāsi na passasi.
But I know it and see it.
Tamahaṁ jānāmi passāmi.
Since this self is annihilated and destroyed when the body breaks up, and doesn’t exist after death, that’s how this self becomes rightly annihilated.’
So kho, bho, attā yato kāyassa bhedā ucchijjati vinassati, na hoti paraṁ maraṇā, ettāvatā kho, bho, ayaṁ attā sammā samucchinno hotī’ti.
That is how some assert the annihilation of an existing being.
Ittheke sato sattassa ucchedaṁ vināsaṁ vibhavaṁ paññapenti.

But someone else says to them:
Tamañño evamāha:
‘That self of which you speak does exist, I don’t deny it.
‘atthi kho, bho, eso attā, yaṁ tvaṁ vadesi, neso natthīti vadāmi;
But that’s not how this self becomes rightly annihilated.
no ca kho, bho, ayaṁ attā ettāvatā sammā samucchinno hoti.
There is another self that is divine, physical, mind-made, complete in all its various parts, not deficient in any faculty.
Atthi kho, bho, añño attā dibbo rūpī manomayo sabbaṅgapaccaṅgī ahīnindriyo.
You don’t know or see that.
Taṁ tvaṁ na jānāsi na passasi.
But I know it and see it.
Tamahaṁ jānāmi passāmi.
Since this self is annihilated and destroyed when the body breaks up, and doesn’t exist after death, that’s how this self becomes rightly annihilated.’
So kho, bho, attā yato kāyassa bhedā ucchijjati vinassati, na hoti paraṁ maraṇā, ettāvatā kho, bho, ayaṁ attā sammā samucchinno hotī’ti.
That is how some assert the annihilation of an existing being.
Ittheke sato sattassa ucchedaṁ vināsaṁ vibhavaṁ paññapenti.

But someone else says to them:
Tamañño evamāha:
‘That self of which you speak does exist, I don’t deny it.
‘atthi kho, bho, eso attā, yaṁ tvaṁ vadesi, neso natthīti vadāmi;
But that’s not how this self becomes rightly annihilated.
no ca kho, bho, ayaṁ attā ettāvatā sammā samucchinno hoti.
There is another self which has gone totally beyond perceptions of form. With the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity, aware that “space is infinite”, it’s reborn in the dimension of infinite space.
Atthi kho, bho, añño attā sabbaso rūpasaññānaṁ samatikkamā paṭighasaññānaṁ atthaṅgamā nānattasaññānaṁ amanasikārā “ananto ākāso”ti ākāsānañcāyatanūpago. Variant: atthaṅgamā → atthagamā (bj, pts1ed)
You don’t know or see that.
Taṁ tvaṁ na jānāsi na passasi.
But I know it and see it.
Tamahaṁ jānāmi passāmi.
Since this self is annihilated and destroyed when the body breaks up, and doesn’t exist after death, that’s how this self becomes rightly annihilated.’
So kho, bho, attā yato kāyassa bhedā ucchijjati vinassati, na hoti paraṁ maraṇā, ettāvatā kho, bho, ayaṁ attā sammā samucchinno hotī’ti.
That is how some assert the annihilation of an existing being.
Ittheke sato sattassa ucchedaṁ vināsaṁ vibhavaṁ paññapenti.

But someone else says to them:
Tamañño evamāha:
‘That self of which you speak does exist, I don’t deny it.
‘atthi kho, bho, eso attā yaṁ tvaṁ vadesi, neso natthīti vadāmi;
But that’s not how this self becomes rightly annihilated.
no ca kho, bho, ayaṁ attā ettāvatā sammā samucchinno hoti.
There is another self which has gone totally beyond the dimension of infinite space. Aware that “consciousness is infinite”, it’s reborn in the dimension of infinite consciousness.
Atthi kho, bho, añño attā sabbaso ākāsānañcāyatanaṁ samatikkamma “anantaṁ viññāṇan”ti viññāṇañcāyatanūpago.
You don’t know or see that.
Taṁ tvaṁ na jānāsi na passasi.
But I know it and see it.
Tamahaṁ jānāmi passāmi.
Since this self is annihilated and destroyed when the body breaks up, and doesn’t exist after death, that’s how this self becomes rightly annihilated.’
So kho, bho, attā yato kāyassa bhedā ucchijjati vinassati, na hoti paraṁ maraṇā, ettāvatā kho, bho, ayaṁ attā sammā samucchinno hotī’ti.
That is how some assert the annihilation of an existing being.
Ittheke sato sattassa ucchedaṁ vināsaṁ vibhavaṁ paññapenti.

But someone else says to them:
Tamañño evamāha:
‘That self of which you speak does exist, I don’t deny it.
‘atthi kho, bho, so attā, yaṁ tvaṁ vadesi, neso natthīti vadāmi;
But that’s not how this self becomes rightly annihilated.
no ca kho, bho, ayaṁ attā ettāvatā sammā samucchinno hoti.
There is another self that has gone totally beyond the dimension of infinite consciousness. Aware that “there is nothing at all”, it’s been reborn in the dimension of nothingness.
Atthi kho, bho, añño attā sabbaso viññāṇañcāyatanaṁ samatikkamma “natthi kiñcī”ti ākiñcaññāyatanūpago.
You don’t know or see that.
Taṁ tvaṁ na jānāsi na passasi.
But I know it and see it.
Tamahaṁ jānāmi passāmi.
Since this self is annihilated and destroyed when the body breaks up, and doesn’t exist after death, that’s how this self becomes rightly annihilated.’
So kho, bho, attā yato kāyassa bhedā ucchijjati vinassati, na hoti paraṁ maraṇā, ettāvatā kho, bho, ayaṁ attā sammā samucchinno hotī’ti.
That is how some assert the annihilation of an existing being.
Ittheke sato sattassa ucchedaṁ vināsaṁ vibhavaṁ paññapenti.

But someone else says to them:
Tamañño evamāha:
‘That self of which you speak does exist, I don’t deny it.
‘atthi kho, bho, eso attā, yaṁ tvaṁ vadesi, neso natthīti vadāmi;
But that’s not how this self becomes rightly annihilated.
no ca kho, bho, ayaṁ attā ettāvatā sammā samucchinno hoti.
There is another self that has gone totally beyond the dimension of nothingness. Aware that “this is peaceful, this is sublime”, it’s been reborn in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.
Atthi kho, bho, añño attā sabbaso ākiñcaññāyatanaṁ samatikkamma “santametaṁ paṇītametan”ti nevasaññānāsaññāyatanūpago.
You don’t know or see that.
Taṁ tvaṁ na jānāsi na passasi.
But I know it and see it.
Tamahaṁ jānāmi passāmi.
Since this self is annihilated and destroyed when the body breaks up, and doesn’t exist after death, that’s how this self becomes rightly annihilated.’
So kho, bho, attā yato kāyassa bhedā ucchijjati vinassati, na hoti paraṁ maraṇā, ettāvatā kho, bho, ayaṁ attā sammā samucchinno hotī’ti.
That is how some assert the annihilation of an existing being.
Ittheke sato sattassa ucchedaṁ vināsaṁ vibhavaṁ paññapenti.

These are the seven grounds on which those ascetics and brahmins assert the annihilation, eradication, and obliteration of an existing being.
Imehi kho te, bhikkhave, samaṇabrāhmaṇā ucchedavādā sato sattassa ucchedaṁ vināsaṁ vibhavaṁ paññapenti sattahi vatthūhi.

The third body in the above list appears to be the “mind made” body.

Its quite intersting that all these selves, even the infinite consciousness one are said to be annhilated at death, so “rebirth” into them doesnt seem to mean a “next life” in them, just a kind of dissapearence from ones own body and reappearance in a sphere.

Oh and also there is a kind of formal sequence in it:

  1. Physical
  2. Sensual
  3. Mental
  4. Spatial
  5. Consciousness
  6. Nothingness
  7. Neither P nor not P
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Hi k36. I am not sure what you mean by the above. Is the the following an example of the above?

Now at that time Venerable Soṇa was staying near Rājagaha in the Cool Grove. Then as he was in private retreat this thought came to his mind… Then the Buddha knew what Venerable Soṇa was thinking. As easily as a strong person would extend or contract their arm, he vanished from the Vulture’s Peak and reappeared in the Cool Grove in front of Soṇa, and sat on the seat spread out. Soṇa bowed to the Buddha and sat down to one side. AN 6.55

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My apologies @CurlyCarl for the delayed response: I was initially quite busy, and then, as the days passed, it just got away from me.

But, yes, that’s pretty much what I meant. That and the many instances of the Buddha or other accomplished disciples (most notably, Mahā Moggallāna) travelling to other worlds.

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