Notez on Nibbāna

Discussion
41

That’s a proposition.

The idea that a stream-enterer has not realized the third noble truth as a direct experience of cessation of the upadanakhanda needs to be subatantiated well because there are explicit text like this

Those who realized the Noble Truths well taught by him who is profound in wisdom (the Buddha), even though they may be exceedingly heedless, they will not take an eighth existence (in the realm of sense spheres).

You have provided a texts, let’s look

This can & should read as a direct experience of cessation. There is a qualifier which reveals it

apart from faith, preference, oral tradition, reasoned contemplation, or acceptance of a view after consideration i know and see

This cross references with how knowing & seeing is talked about

"When this was said, he replied to me, ‘You may stay here, my friend. This doctrine is such that a wise person can soon enter & dwell in his own teacher’s knowledge, having realized it for himself through direct knowledge.’

"It was not long before I quickly learned the doctrine. As far as mere lip-reciting & repetition, I could speak the words of knowledge, the words of the elders, and I could affirm that I knew & saw — I, along with others.

This is a type of knowing & seeing but not a direct realization, which comes next

"I thought: ‘It isn’t through mere conviction alone that Alara Kalama declares, “I have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge.” Certainly he dwells knowing & seeing this Dhamma.’ So I went to him and said, ‘To what extent do you declare that you have entered & dwell in this Dhamma?’ When this was said, he declared the dimension of nothingness.

"I thought: ‘Not only does Alara Kalama have conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, & discernment. I, too, have conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, & discernment. What if I were to endeavor to realize for myself the Dhamma that Alara Kalama declares he has entered & dwells in, having realized it for himself through direct knowledge.’ So it was not long before I quickly entered & dwelled in that Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge.

And so it would suggest that the qualifier

apart from faith, preference, oral tradition, reasoned contemplation, or acceptance of a view after consideration i know and see

In

apart from faith, preference, oral tradition, reasoned contemplation, or acceptance of a view after consideration, i know and see that ‘bhavanirodho nibbānan’”ti.the cessation of continued existence is extinguishment.

Does point to a knowledge & vision of direct realization of the cessation of aggregates.

Now the analogy therein

then along comes a person struggling in the oppressive heat, weary, thirsty, and parched. they’d know that there was water, but they couldn’t physically touch it. in the same way, i have truly seen clearly with right wisdom that the cessation of continued existence is extinguishment. Yet i am not a perfected one.

In drawing out the meaning i’d assert

That the goal of the training is a complete removal of taints, arahantship, and that this is the designation of Nibbana, not the attainment of samadhi by which this comes about.

And so i don’t read the analogy as you do

I read

  • Knowing that there is water as analogy for having direct experience of the immediacy which removes fetters and having some fetters removed by this direct knowledge.
  • Not being able to physically touch it as analogy for not having removed all taints.
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42

In general there is an obvious qualifier as to a direct realization of cessation being attained by non-arahants, there is no doubt about this, because it what ceases is the upadanakhanda and only trainees have upadana, sobone has to be a trainee to realize this.

It is also explicit in the texts that anagamis have cessation of perception & feeling and the texts make no distinction between the anagamis on this account, unlike how there is a distinction between learners with & without formless attainments.

As a matter of fact, no canonical theravada text draws out a special class of those who have seen with wisdom and attained to cessation of perception & feeling, which would suggest that they all have attained cessation and it is that very seeing with wisdom by which some of their fetters were removed.

  1. Faith follower - Has no seeing with wisdom by which taints are removed
  2. Dhamma follower - Has no seeing with wisdom by which taints are removed
  3. One attained to view - Has seeing with wisdom by which some taints are removed, doesn’t have formless attainments
  4. One liberated by faith - Has seeing with wisdom by which some taints are removed, doesn’t have formless attainments
  5. Bodily witness - Has seeing with wisdom by which some taints are removed, does have formless attainments
  6. One released by wisdom - Has seeing with wisdom by which taints are removed, doesn’t have formless attainments
  7. One released in both ways - Has seeing with wisdom by which taints are removed, does have formless attainments

In as far as principial attainments go, neither of those attained to seeing are differentiated by a lack of a direct experience of upadanakhandanirodha, nor by sannavedaniyanirodha, nor by a lack of signless/emptiness/undirected samadhi, only by a lack of formless percipience.

#3-5 can be sotapannas, sakidagamis or anagamis

There is no further classifiction as to their principial attainments.

And so if one has to admit that even one anagami has the attainment of cessation of perception & feeling, then one has to explain why the #3-5 don’t.

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43

Btw if i seem to ignore some posts or don’t address things you think should be addressed, please let me know because it’s not easy to keep track as i talk in several threads. It can be overwhelming with notifications and the effort required in answering.

44

I don’t understand the dichotomy

One category

‘see Cessation in order to be liberated through wisdom’

Do you have pannavimutti arahants in mind here?

Second category

‘the path of the meditative attainment of Cessation’

Do you have in mind those arahants who are liberated in both ways?

When you say

wise contemplation/ achievement of Cessation

Do you mean both
the meditative attainment of cessation of perception & feeling
and
a removal of taints by the seeing with wisdom?

I think the answer would be drawn out from these texts

'Having directly known the all as the all,[8] and having directly known the extent of what has not been experienced through the allness of the all, I wasn’t the all, I wasn’t in the all, I wasn’t coming forth from the all, I wasn’t “The all is mine.” I didn’t affirm the all. Brahma-nimantanika Sutta: The Brahma Invitation

Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: ‘In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.’ In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya.

“When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen… in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be ‘with that.’ When, Bahiya, you are not ‘with that,’ then, Bahiya, you will not be ‘in that.’ When, Bahiya, you are not ‘in that,’ then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering.”
Bahiya Sutta: About Bahiya

“He directly knows Nibbāna as Nibbāna. Having directly known Nibbāna as Nibbāna, he should not conceive himself as Nibbāna, he should not conceive himself in Nibbāna, he should not conceive himself apart from Nibbāna, he should not conceive Nibbāna to be ‘mine,’ he should not delight in Nibbāna. Why is that? Because he must fully understand it, I say.
SuttaCentral

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45

A sutta about directing to signs & the undirected development.

I think that one who trains like this eventually realizes undirected samadhi. I bolded the parts not to make any point but to make it easy to read because the paragraphs are so alike and the italics are identical lines

Here, Ānanda, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. While he is contemplating the body in the body, there arises in him, based on the body, either a fever in the body or sluggishness of mind, or the mind is distracted outwardly. That bhikkhu should then direct his mind towards some inspiring sign. When he directs his mind towards some inspiring sign, gladness is born. When he is gladdened, rapture is born. When the mind is uplifted by rapture, the body becomes tranquil. One tranquil in body experiences happiness. The mind of one who is happy becomes concentrated. He reflects thus: ‘The purpose for the sake of which I directed my mind has been achieved. Let me now withdraw it.’ So he withdraws the mind and does not think or examine. He understands: ‘Without thought and examination, internally mindful, I am happy.’’
[…]
“It is in such a way, Ānanda, that there is development by direction.

“And how, Ānanda, is there development without direction?

Not directing his mind outwardly, a bhikkhu understands: ‘My mind is not directed outwardly.’ Then he understands: ‘It is unconstricted after and before, liberated, undirected.’ Then he further understands: ‘I dwell contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful; I am happy.’

“Not directing his mind outwardly, a bhikkhu understands: ‘My mind is not directed outwardly.’ Then he understands: ‘It is unconstricted after and before, liberated, undirected.’ Then he further understands: ‘I dwell contemplating feelings in feelings, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful; I am happy.’

“Not directing his mind outwardly, a bhikkhu understands: ‘My mind is not directed outwardly.’ Then he understands: ‘It is unconstricted after and before, liberated, undirected.’ Then he further understands: ‘I dwell contemplating mind in mind, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful; I am happy.’

“Not directing his mind outwardly, a bhikkhu understands: ‘My mind is not directed outwardly.’ Then he understands: ‘It is unconstricted after and before, liberated, undirected.’ Then he further understands: ‘I dwell contemplating dhammas in dhammas, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful; I am happy.’

“It is in this way, Ānanda, that there is development without direction.

“Thus, Ānanda, I have taught development by direction, I have taught development without direction. Whatever should be done, Ānanda, by a compassionate teacher out of compassion for his disciples, desiring their welfare, that I have done for you. These are the feet of trees, Ānanda, these are empty huts. Meditate, Ānanda, do not be negligent, lest you regret it later. This is our instruction to you.”
SuttaCentral

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46

Yes, exactly! :blush: . Reflecting on the nature of what is left when every process that ‘I’ might possibly call ‘me’ has ceased would IMO, be the path to pannavimutti. Knowing it through direct experience would lead to being freed both ways.

47

I have never seen any clue in the sutta’s that abiding in a state an sich leads to uprooting of defilements. Also the above fragment does not suggest this. Are we in agreement about this?
The disclaimer is always seeing with wisdom.

This is also the theme of MN1, i feel. Whatever one experiences or directly knows and perceives, jhana, Nibbana, whatever…one can still make mistakes, one can still understand things wrongly. It can still lead to wrong views. Such we can also see with Buddha’s teachers. An sich abiding in a state does not uproot anything.

I also feel it becomes problematic when the message is: If one is not able to enter and abide in SannaVedayitaNirodha one cannot enter the stream to Nibbana. It makes it almost impossible for people to enter the stream. There is also really no sutta who says so. It makes Dhamma more or less inaccessible.

While i feel that is better to understand that all is allready present. Even in this very moment mind is not always attached, engaged, with clinging, burdened. And getting feeling for this, is i feel is more important then abiding in any state.

If one starts to see that freedom from clinging is not something of a far away future, i feel that is the way to connect with Dhamma. That inspires, but the message that one can only enter the stream when one is able to enter an extraordinairy state…that is not inspiring and helpful. That is more like demotivating.

I know that many people believe they must first see or know something extraordinairy…and then all will start…i once also thought like that. Now, i feel this way of thinking is more like a barrier.

I think it is also not trivial that Buddha directed the mind towards the knowledge of his former lifes, rebirth and kamma and the four noble truths in fourth jhana. That state apparantly has the ability to connect with this true knowledge that is said to be the counterpart of aviija. That drives avijja away.

It was not in SVN that Buddha got this knowledge.

48

Saying it as you suggest would be problematic because arahants do not have asavas (effluents/leaks) but can enter & remain in svn.

Would it be fair to say that at that time this attainment will lead to an uprooting of anything? No, here it is just a principial pleasant abiding.

Note this phrase

And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end.

Is always in a paragraph following svn.

If SVN was not the immediacy leading to removal of taints, then we would expect to see passages like this

Furthermore, take a mendicant who, going totally beyond the perception of sensuality & unwholesome states, enters and remains in the first jhana… second jhana… third jhana… fourth jhana. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end.

The texts are actually very direct in giving the requirements for removal of taints

The general formula is thus, he progressively attains

  • 1st jhana
  • 2nd jhana
  • 3rd jhana
  • 4th jhana
  • Formless space
  • Formless consciousness
  • Formless nothingness
  • Formless neither nor
  • Cessation of SV. And his defilements come to an end by the seeing with wisdom.

Now, if just this was the Dhamma, then just this is the progressive linear development. But the texts explain that some Ariya do not have two things

  1. Faith & dhamma anussaris do not have seeing with wisdom.
  2. One attained to view, one liberated by faith, one released by wisdom, these three are said not to have the formless.

Therefore in as far as the progressive development, based on this deduction, for all ariya, you can only wave the requirement for the formless attainment. And seeing with wisdom must be born of a direct experience of svn and so only the anussaris are without this.

This is not very complicated.

49

Even if one just has faith in right things then one has entered the course of righteousness and can not die before realizing the fruition of stream-entry.

Suppose a person has no svn and it relly is not actually required for stream entry. But another person convinces him that it is required. And so he starts training for it. Is that even bad?

Do you think the view ‘svn is not required for stream entry’ will block stream entry if it’s wrong? How so?

And do you think the view ‘svn is required for stream entry’ will block the attainment of svn? How so?

And if it doesn’t block it then would you call him a stream enterer if he was successful in attaining svn?

On the other hand,
Now suppose that svn actually is required for stream entry, and a person becomes convinced that it is not required. And so he doesn’t train for it.

Do you think this view ‘svn is not required for stream entry’ will block stream entry if it’s wrong?

If one has not yet developed understanding, then It’s a matter of making a safe bet, when having done the risk evaluation, in contrasting these propositions.

51

How do you (not personal) enter and abide in sannavedayitanirodha? Is there a method, a Path? Is it per change? What do we need to enter it? Via strong samadhi and jhana? Or in another way?

52

Are you familiar with what is commonly talked about as the practice of ‘dry-insight’ or sukkhavipassaka training?

It’s a commentary method that is delineated from what they call samatha development.

The gist of sukkhavipassaka is in not resolving on any state of existence, no jhana, no formless, they generally just contemplate the drawbacks of all and the advatage of the escape from this.

Because this is traditional commentary described in Vsm, it is reconciled with the Vsm jhanas, which produces a dichotomy of samatha-jhanas and vipassana-jhanas.

Mahasi Sayadaw wrote this

Absorption in Insight Meditation

Insight meditation and absorption have some characteristics in common. When the practice of mindfulness is well established at the exploratory stage, i.e. knowledge by comprehension (sammasanañāna), there are initial application (vitakka), sustained application (vicāra), joy (pīti), bliss (sukha), and one-pointedness (ekagattā). Thus, whenever the meditator observes any phenomenon, his insight meditation is somewhat like the first absorption with its five characteristics.

When the meditator gains insight-knowledge of the arising and passing away of all phenomena, he is fully aware of an arising object without initial or sustained application. He has intense joy, bliss, and tranquillity, thus his meditation is somewhat like the second absorption with its three attributes.

The disappearance of the light, and so forth — the corruptions of insight (upakkilesa) — marks an advance in the insight-knowledge of the arising and passing away of phenomena. Then there is no joy, but bliss is very intense. The mind is tranquil and free from distractions. The meditator has the bliss and one-pointedness that are characteristics of the third absorption.

The higher levels of insight-knowledge such as knowledge of dissolution (bhangañāna), wherein the meditator sees only the passing away usually have nothing to do with joy. They are characterised by equanimity and one-pointedness. The former is especially pronounced at the stage of knowledge of equanimity about formations. At this stage the insight meditation is akin to the fourth absorption with its two attributes of equanimity and one-pointedness.

Furthermore, at times the meditator’s whole body disappears, giving him the impression of being in space. At that moment he is like a person absorbed in ākāsānañcāyatana jhāna. At other times, attention is fixed exclusively on consciousness and then the meditator’s state of consciousness resembles viññānañcāyatana jhāna. On occasions, it seems as though he were noting nothingness, a state somewhat like ākiñcaññāyatana jhāna. Sometimes the consciousness may be so transcendental that it becomes non-existent, a state on par with that of nevasaññā-nāsaññāyatana jhāna.

These characteristics that insight meditation has in common with absorption often leads to complacency, which is an obstacle to spiritual progress. In meditation it is necessary to note these unusual experiences and reject them. In the Sallekha Sutta, the Buddha, after pointing out the misleading nature of absorption, proceeds to spell out the practice of effacement that is calculated to root out defilements.

This whole methdology is much complicated and i here present only some distinctions.

What i do want to draw out is the general attitude & mode of contemplation which defines the sukkhavipassaka training, a radical disinterestedness in all feeling states & felt attainments.

A person who is not calm to the extent of having stilled the hindrances will have do this first. When this is done the mind will leap according to it’s inclination for there is an opening.

If the perceptions of impermanence, of not-self, of dukkha, of non-delight, of unattractiveness, are well established, if he sees the signs arising from name&form as suffering and does not hold pernicious wrong views, then there will come about a cessation of all dependently originated perception & feeling because the mind has no other effective resolve & interest.

If it doesn’t leap to cessation, then it will go to some felt state of existence, pleasant feelings, visions, kasinas, other formless, any of this according to one’s prior development.

Training with the idea that a full shutdown of feeling & perception can not occur before you master some feeling attainment is a resolve antithetical to resolving on cessation of feeling states. It’s like thinking that you are not worthy and it’s not for you.

It may be out of range now but in as far as there is a measure of range, something good is always in one’s range, and you can develop your range as to make it limitless by developing the good things in your range.

53

I can say more about this topic.

Essentially in as far as principial attainments go there is a beginning, middle and the end. One has to start in the beginning, one can skip the middle, but if one does not target the end then one will never reach the far shore.

There is an important text, i’ll give my commentary

When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on delusion, he places conviction in him. With the arising of conviction, he visits him & grows close to him. Growing close to him, he lends ear. Lending ear, he hears the Dhamma. Hearing the Dhamma, he remembers it. Remembering it, he penetrates the meaning of those dhammas. Penetrating the meaning, he comes to an agreement through pondering those dhammas. There being an agreement through pondering those dhammas, desire arises. With the arising of desire, he becomes willing. Willing, he contemplates (lit: “weighs,” “compares”). Contemplating, he makes an exertion. Exerting himself, he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body and sees by penetrating it with discernment. Canki Sutta: With Canki

In as far as the necessary principial attainments, he has, at this point seen them, as in, has attained them.

"To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is an awakening to the truth. To this extent one awakens to the truth. I describe this as an awakening to the truth. But it is not yet the final attainment of the truth.

“The cultivation, development, & pursuit of those very same qualities: to this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the final attainment of the truth. To this extent one finally attains the truth. I describe this as the final attainment of the truth.”

I take awakening to truth to be associated with a direct realization of upadanakhandanirodha, third noble truth, as the principial cessation of perception & feeling. And having some taints removed by that seeing with wisdom.

And then the development of these same means leads to the final attainment of the end-goal of the training, uprooting of upadana, arahantship, the ‘unprovoked release’, as the final attainment of the four noble truths.

54

@Notez ,

if sannavedayitanirodha leads to this, does that not mean it is a way to become an arahant, in stead of sotapanna?

55

What is exactly a full shut down of perception (as sanna) according you?

56

Some people become arahants after the first time, others become

  • Attained to view if their pañña faculty is most exceptional
  • Released by conviction if their saddha faculty is most exceptional
  • Bodily Witness if their samadhi faculty is most exceptional

They just need to keep training in the same way

57

Maybe. Do you make a distinction between the arising of the Dhamma eye and stream-entrence?

58

Just that, a full shutdown of perception, a bursting of a mass of darkness, the end of a mirrage, freedom from existence, the far shore.

Unimaginable peace which is not experienced through the allness of the all, does not part-take in everything, not of the world or mentality, it surpasses any material or immaterial existence.

It’s much better than existence, don’t be averse to full cessation of existence for existence is unstable & relatively disgusting.

Cessation bursts the prison of existence, this mind & world, this name & form, these damn aggregates; boundless, limitless, unevolving, effortless, independent, fearless, hungerless, and indescribably beautiful, is this shutting down of feeling & perception, on account of the unmade.

59

It’s an interesting question which i’ve been coming back & forth to, pondering whether a faith follower can be said to see the dhamma.

In the principial classification of eyes

“Monks, there are three eyes. What three? The fleshly eye, the divine eye, and the eye of wisdom. Monks, these are the three eyes.”

This is the meaning of what the Blessed One said. So, with regard to this, it was said:

The fleshly eye, the divine eye, and the supreme eye of wisdom—these three eyes were taught by the supreme Buddha. The birth of the fleshy eye is helpful to obtain the divine eye. The arising of the knowledge of the Four Noble Truths is obtained by the unsurpassed eye of wisdom. Whoever obtains the eye of wisdom is released from all suffering.
https://suttafriends.org/sutta/itv61/

There is no dhamma-eye

And so this dhamma-eye is apparently supposed to somehow fit into that threefold classification.

Suppose a person proclaims

‘Knowledge & vision of the Four Noble Truths has arisen in me, i have obtained by the unsurpassed eye of wisdom’

We should ask '‘To what extent do you declare that you have knowledge & vision of these Four Noble Truths?’

Then he can answer however he wants, but we want to interrogate until we figure out, in regards to the Dhamma taught to be

deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise,

Whether he can claim to have both realized the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body and seen by penetrating it with discernment, and thus having realized or attained the four Noble Truths, through direct experience and being attained to knowing & seeing which is apart from having conviction, preference, learning the texts, tradition, reasoned contemplation, or acceptance of a view after consideration.

60

But no sutta says so. The sutta’s say that when one abides in sannavedayitanirodha and sees with wisdom then defilements are uprooted. Not gradually uprooted. That one must time over time enter and abide in SVN and then at some moment all defilements are uprooted is something you assume.

I still do not see evidence that stream entrence has SVN as condition. The most basis condition seems to be that one has developed especially anicca sanna to a certain degree.

61

Again

Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self. He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.’ If he is steady in that, he attains the destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the destruction of the taints because of that desire for the Dhamma, that delight in the Dhamma, then with the destruction of the five lower fetters he becomes one due to reappear spontaneously in the Pure Abodes and there attain final Nibbāna without ever returning from that world. This is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters.

From this text, in cross-reference with others, as i demonstrared, it can be inferred that one attains the immediacy which removes fetters and emerges an arahant, but not necessarily an arahant, might have to do more work developing the same principial qualities.

The default assumption is thar the path to abandoning, of the three lower fetters or five fetters, is principially the same 8FNP, and the two are principially analog realization of 4NTs, whereas the removal of 10 fetters is also a principial analog of realization but the removal of 10 is a final attainment of the truth and thus different to that extent .