The context here is jhana right? Not sannavedayitanirodha.
For me this fragment has the following meaning: one understands and sees that any desire for whatever state is not conducive to the goal of Nibbana. The destruction of the taints relies upon this insight that the same passion to be in this or that temporary state is the cause of suffering and not the solution! That together with the insight that dispassion is never something of the future. One can here and now connect to dispassion because the mind is not always passionate.
So one gradually abandons such desires to be in a temporary state.
The destruction of the taints is nothing but the abandoning, the removal, the letting go, the ending of the desire to be in this or that state, which is not different from the desire for future states.
This can relate to rebirth but ofcourse also in this very life.
It is impossible to have a directed mind in sannavedayitanirodha. Directing the mind towards dispassion, destruction of craving, only means that one has recognised dispassion is not something of the future, because the mind is not always passionate and with clinging. Having recognised dispassion to be not something of the far away future, one will give up with that insight gradually all craving for temporary states, due to which dispassion becomes only more and more apparant for oneself but is never made nor created by oneself.
I recognise this fragment and have seen that this was in the context of jhana. What is the sutta?
I also do not know what you mean with immediacy…but i believe the fragment says that we can direct the mind immediately upon what is here and now alreayd a peaceful, dispassionate, stilled element in our lifes. But that is not the same as abiding in svn but more like connecting to this element of dispassion and stilling while we are in a normal state.
I believe it is very important to see that this element of cessation, stillness, detachment, dispassion is not something absent or something we make or create. It only becomes more and more apparant when we give up craving.
Did you read the OP? This is the sutta which this whole thread is about, and you are telling me you recognize this text, i am shocked in how you can be this oblivious to the subject of discussion.
It is mn64 and it’s parallel in anguttara 9.36 SuttaCentral both already fully explained here
I am not really interested in explaining the same things again.
Yes, but i was lazy. It is indeed in the context of jhana like i recognised it.
The fragment for me says two things.
the removal of taints it arrived at when:
-1. one turns the mind away from temporary formations and states, one breaks with that obsession, with the allure
-2. direct it upon what at this very moment is already an element of peace, stilness, cessation, desirelessness in ones mind.
If you practice this in a steady way, both!, constant, you will attain the destruction of taints and become peaceful, dispassionate. But not immediately and it is not about abiding in Svn
SVN and a directed mind exclude eachother.
does not refer to abiding in SVN but being steady in 1. turning the mind away from the khandha’s, breaking the allure of them and 2. direct it to what is allready a peaceful element (asankhata element).
I also know from my own experience that if one invests a lot of time in research, in interpretation, in thinking and reflecting upon things, seeking the true meaning , relating this to experience, and becomes enthousiastic about it, inspired, and feels one is on to something, that will lead to big disappointment sharing that. Because other people they do not have that vivid experience. Probably they are even clueless why you (or anyone else) is so enthousiastic and feel the need to share it. I know what this is.
I do not want to offend you or demotivate. But i just want to be honest to you. Really i do not see in the sutta’s that sannavedayitanirodha is needed to enter the stream and i have not seen you make convincing statements about this. Sorry to say but it does not convince me.
The texts guide into a different direction. Especially anicca sanna is important to enter the stream. SN25 explains two kind of persons that are not yet sotapanna but are practicing for that fruit. If you read the texts the insight they share is all about anicca. Also the opening of the Dhamma eye is expressed as: whatever is liable to arise is also liable to cease.
Read for example SN25.3-8 It seems like the ones that practice for the fruit of sotapanna all are very deep into anicca, inconstancy, impermance, , seeing how fleeting everything is concerning the 6 sense domains, including craving.
And SN25.10 says: Someone who understands and sees these principles (as explained in before sutta’s) is called a stream-enterer, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening.”
Anyway, the one practicing for the fruit of stream entree seem to be focussed on the inconstancy of formations, experiences, states etc. The fleeting character.
I do not believe this is about sannavedayitanirodha as condition for entering the stream. But how i understand this is: feeling for anicca gives also rise to feeling for nicca. Feeling for what is stable, constant also becomes more and more apparant while anicca becomes more and more apparant.
The one cannot do without the other. Like one also gets more feeling for what is alien to the mind or adventitious or not-self, and what is substantially mind. So, also the dukkha sanna gives rise to the sukha sanna.
This is probably seen here as fake news, but i feel it is true. Understanding of one cannot arise without the other. If one has no understanding of sukha one cannot have any understanding of dukkha.
I have seen someone said this here too and i agree.
There are also sutta’s who describe the conditions for the fruits (such as SN55.5). Those do not mention that one must be able to abide in sannavedayitanirodha.
But i believe in the end it all comes down to the same because:
or via samadhi or the ability to still the mind to an extreme,
or via vipassana, without the ability to still the mind to an extreme…
…one arrives at the same empty and open dimension where nothing lands, establishes or grows.
I believe the sutta’s reveal that the Path to Nibbana is also open for them who are not able to shut down everything. For not many people the path of such extreme stilling is accessible . I believe it is not meritorious to teach that those people cannot enter the stream nor arrive at Nibbana. They can via vipassana. They become liberated by wisdom.
Like i said, this was never meant to be widely accepted or accepted by you in particular.
Some people have come to agreement and this is more than i expected for reception. And there is no substantive criticism of this either.
This thesis is not going to go away anytime soon, it is already spreading and we are going to try to improve this, with or without your help & approval.
I am relatively young and I am not planning to quit learning until i am done. In 20-30 years the assembly will be quite different and i will probably be in my intellectual prime if i live that long.
You with Mara & Brahma together couldn’t demotivate me, don’t fool yourself into thinking you see & know me.
I really don’t care much about what happens now, i just do my work, i am in this for life and the end game of my strategies doesn’t include the people who won’t live to see it.
…theories?..absolute facts you mean 