All I can offer is a subjective experience. When I was in my 20’s, I found the Buddhist view of parinibbana as the cessation of the 5 khandas and therefore non-existence quite dark and pessimistic, as you say. At 60, I no longer find it dark. I find the idea that parinibbana is cessation quite peaceful and comforting. I don’t know if it’s decades of meditation and years of daily reflecting on the 5 reflections. Given the degree the 5 hindrances are still with me, I suspect it’s not the practice. I sometimes suspect it has more to do with age than anything. After 60 years of living in samsara the idea of cessation makes sense. And I’ve lived a privileged middle class white straight cis male life. It’s not that I’m reacting to an extreme form of suffering in my life. It’s just, at 60, the idea of cessation doesn’t feel dark, it feels nice.
Perhaps if I could have certainty that I would reborn in the heaven realms indefinitely I would agree with that goal. However, as I understand it, there’s a tendency among devas and brahmas to be so caught up in the pleasure of their existence that they fail to continue to produce good kamma and end up eventually falling into the lower realms.
I think perception is a dubious translation of sanna. Sanna is, i believe, more about recognition, immediate associations with an object, memory based meanings and signs one experiences together with an object.
Yes, if we translate sannavedayitanirodha as the ‘the cessation of perception and feeling’. Than it is like there is no perception at all in that state.
I think the absence of sanna means there is no recognition of sense objects (because absent) no memory related associations of sense-objects. No meanings, and no signs because there is nothing that triggers this. Mind falls back in a very basic kind of knowing or perception.
This is a good point. It reminds me of this sutta which suggests experience beyond the dimension of neither preception-nor-non-preception I think we discussed in a dm. Would be very interested to hear how the cessation folks read this.
“It could be, Ānanda, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. And they wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And yet they would still perceive.”
“But how could this be, sir?”
“Ānanda, it’s when a mendicant perceives: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.’
That’s how a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. And they wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And yet they would still perceive.”
AN 10:6
So nibbāna with residue remaining can be an object of perception? If nibbāna is just cessation, first of the three poisons and then of the khandhas, what is there to perceive
The instinct to survive is much more powerful than what people think of as a value judgement.
I suspect many people would find that to be a deeply unsatisfying answer.
The Buddha then takes it one step further and says that the cessation of perception of feeling, saññāvedayitanirodha – which is the living persons equivalent of final Nibbāna – is an even greater happiness.
In my opinion, if there is no feeling there is no happiness.
Perhaps nibbana is only the ultimate happiness for a moment, knowing it is going to happen, before it (annihilation, cessation) kicks in.
As things cease in your meditation – the thinking, the body, the senses, painful feelings – it is easy to notice that suffering is decreasing and happiness is going up.
Very true, but that only happens because you are still alive to notice it. It wouldn’t be of much value without consciousness and feeling to appreciate it.
Being told you will be dead at the end of this life (anatta means rebirth of your remnants, not a new life for you ), but that if you work hard another person in the future who will be your spiritual descendant might like the idea of being completely dead (nibanna) isn’t motivating or inspiring.
Why bother with Buddhism then?
Religion has value in that it provides a mental map, and a map with something to look forward to in the grand scheme of things.
It looks to me like you just wrote that Buddhism doesn’t offer that.
I gave up putting energy into the suttas a number of years ago because that is the idea I had.
I came back hoping I was wrong, but it looks like I was not.
This view is pessimistic. I was feeling down about Buddhism and struggling to feel better about it, but this conversation has only made me feel worse.
I appreciate you going out of your way to post your views in this thread. Thank you.
I am left wondering if Nibbana ultimately nothing more than total cessation why not just call it that? Why Nibbana and not Nirodha? Are there any places in the sutta pitika where the Buddha uses nirodha as a synonym for nibbana? A quick scan through the various terms for nibbana in SN 43 shows that any term explicitly focused on cessation is suspiciously missing whereas many of the terms, as others have pointed out, seem somewhat incompatible with pure cessation.
sa-upadisesa ca nibbānadhatu or nibbana with residue refers to nibbana realized by a living arahant. The khandas are still present and so they are experienced – though without any defilements or avijja, and without the dukkha associated with clinging and mental proliferations. The Buddha described discomfort in his back and was in physical pain before he passed away, as noted in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta.
anupadiseasa ca nibbānadhaturefers to parinibbāna, after the death of an arahant, when all the khandas, experiences, consciousness, etc. are fully extinguished, without residue.
Distinguishing these “kinds” of nibbāna is important. Otherwise, we’re left with trying to understand how an arahant can walk around and yet not be conscious (absence of the khandas) if we take nibbana without residue and apply it to a living sage.
Regular readers will know I have been working to feel better about Buddhism.
I’ve been trying to work out a mental map and a map with something meaningful to look forward to in the grand scheme of things.
This thread has only made me feel worse about the possibility of ever finding meaningful comfort from Buddhism.
It seems like the only people who get meaningful emotional comfort from Buddhism in regards to the grand scheme of things are the ones who don’t understand it, thinking they will survive past this life.
I am truly sorry I read this thread. I feel horrible.
Although I agree cessation and non-self should always be considered together, I resonate with these sentiments. I think most important to put cessation in perspective is to grasp not the idea of non-self but the idea of rebirth. This seems to be reflected by the four noble truths, which mention suffering and its cessation alongside rebirth but not non-self.
Some more thoughts on this:
I don’t think it necessarily follows that if there were no rebirth, suicide would be the rational choice. A universe without rebirth would be fundamentally different from a universe with rebirth. The four noble truths wouldn’t apply to that universe, there would be no Buddha to teach them, and I surmise we as humans, if we could exist at all, would not develop the rationale to think about such issues. So we can’t say much about suffering in such a universe, nor can we say whether suicide would be a desirable thing there.
The Buddha’s teachings on suffering were NOT meant apply to a universe without rebirth. You just can’t copy-paste his ideas which fully revolve around rebirth onto a worldview which lacks rebirth. It’s like insisting to use Newton’s laws in a universe which has different laws of nature.
Sure, hypothetically we can assume a no-rebirth universe which in all other ways is similar to a with-rebirth universe, but I think it is important to keep in mind that it is just hypothetical (from the Buddha’s perspective, anyway). So while it is an interesting thought experiment, we should be careful to not let it become emotionally charged. If we apply the ideas of suffering and cessation to a view of a single life, we lose a very important perspective. Then things start looking dark indeed.
Having chocolate ice cream is nice once in a while, but if you’re forced to eat it a few cups of it every day, it soon becomes repulsive. Likewise, if you have the perspective that you have existed for what is basically forever, life starts to taste different. Having a wonderful life—a successful career, a beautiful family, a healthy body and mind, and so on—just once, is quite different from having such a life over and over again. Remember the movie Groundhog Day, where at first the weatherman (Bill Murray) does all sorts of exciting and new stuff every day, but after a while starts to get bored and kill himself.
Therefore imo the view of rebirth is necessary for cessation to make emotional sense. The Buddha took rebirth as a starting point as well, and suffering is often in essence defined as samsara:
Mendicants, before my awakening—when I was bound for awakening but not yet fully awake—I thought: ‘Oh no! People have really gotten into trouble. They are born, age, die, pass on, and are reborn again. Yet they don’t see any escape from this suffering, this old age and death and so on. When will an escape from all this finally be found? (SN12.10)
"Reverend Sāriputta, what is happiness and what is suffering?”
“Rebirth is suffering, reverend, no rebirth is happiness. (AN10.65)
From the Milindapanha (mil3.4.8):
The king said: ‘Is cessation Nirvāna ?
‘Yes, your Majesty’
The Milindapanha is part of the Burmese Canon but somewhat later than the suttas. The earlier suttas don’t equate the two terms this directly, but the two are still clearly synonyms. They occur for example in the common list “This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment (nibbana).”
In fact, nowadays we are always referring to the goal as ‘nibbana’, but in the suttas ‘cessation’ is much more common description. ‘Nibbana’ is just a metaphor for this (the image of a fire going out). In the suttas it is used not as frequently as modern use suggests.
To the arahant there is nobody experiencing the suffering. The arahant “has no perplexity or doubt that what arises is only suffering arising, what ceases is only suffering ceasing.” (SN12.15) Since there is just suffering with nobody experiencing it, they have full equanimity about it. They are no longer attached to any kind of existence or consciousness but see no personal need to end it either. (Moreover, they have compassion to teach others while still alive.)
I am truly sorry you are feeling this way. I spent years on the Buddhist path experiencing the same sense of pessimism as you.
If I may, my experience is that monastics are much more joyful than the average person. They understand Buddhism, and they live rich lives with much joy.
And I can’t speak for lay practitioners in general, but I fully believe the path ultimately leads to non-existence and I find that a quite comforting idea.
Would it be helpful if you put aside the intellectual problem of what the teaching says about parinibbana, and just focused on the positive states like Metta and serenity?
Which is also just a feeling: impermanent, conditioned. And on the other side of grief is freedom.
But, yes. There’s a sutta where a young monk tries to teach the higher truths to someone who isn’t ready for them and the Buddha chastised him. For ordinary people, it’s better to focus on karma and mundane Right View: good actions lead to pleasant outcomes. Just focus on that, and you’ll eventually see for yourself that stilling the mind is both good and pleasant.
Hi @1hullofaguy, I think the main problem with what you are saying is that you take “cessation” to mean cessation of “existence” but I think that this is repeatedly denied in the suttas, it is suffering that ceases. “existence” and “non-existence” are more or less simply rejected as false concepts on critical-metaphysical grounds so when asked if the arahant/buddha exists, does not exist, both exists and does not exist or neither exists nor doesn’t exist after the death of the physical body the suttas repeatedly claim that the terms simply do not apply.
there isn’t an “existing” “experiencing” “person” in the first place, so how could a non-existant thing cease? does it cease to be a non existent thing? does do this by beginning to actually exist? it is suffering (or if you’d rather attraction, repulsion and confusion) that ceases with nibanna not the already non existing “person”.
The basic picture in the suttas is that we are through a kind of delusional manifesting, immortal beings living infinite lives, all of which end in suffering and death (and many of witch start out and continue with said suffering as well) and that it is possible to end this delusion and “wake up” - at which point the illusion dissipates like so much fog, the point is that life and death and experience and non-experience are all things that happen IN THE FOG, and upon awaking from them they simply no longer apply.
This is NOT the same as picturing nibanna as “non-existance” except in as much as you might think of it as the “non-existance” of a hallucination after the maddness has passed, you won’t miss the hallucination or the madness.
So TLDR; the assertion that nibanna is the “cessation” of a person or of “existence” or of “experience” is simply false, and not supported by the suttas, which repeatedly say 1. that nibanna is the cessation of suffering (or craving) and 2. that none of “existing” “not existing” “both” or “neither” apply to the “state” or “status” of a person who has experienced nibanna.
I sometimes suspect it has more to do with age than anything. After 60 years of living in samsara the idea of cessation makes sense. And I’ve lived a privileged middle class white straight cis male life. It’s not that I’m reacting to an extreme form of suffering in my life. It’s just, at 60, the idea of cessation doesn’t feel dark, it feels nice.
is nice once in a while, but if you’re forced to eat it a few cups of it every day, it soon becomes repulsive. Likewise, if you have the perspective that you have existed for what is basically forever, life starts to taste different. Having a wonderful life—a successful career, a beautiful family, a healthy body and mind, and so on—just once, is quite different from having such a life over and over again. Remember the movie Groundhog Day, where at first the weatherman (Bill Murray) does all sorts of exciting and new stuff every day, but after a while starts to get bored and kill himself.