Revisiting Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ

inb4dead · April 4, 2019, 12:30pm

even tho you did not ask a question, i will address this.

Nibbana when defined as removal of ignorance and the abscence of delusion in an Arahant;

“This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way.” SN45.7

"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and plain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.Silavant Sutta: Virtuous

As i see It, it is the “impairment” of Intellect faculty by removal of the ignorance element that is spoken of in this way.

As for namarupa and vinnanakhanda. Khanda means a heap or a group, meaning any kind of consciouness, past, present and future. It does not say any consciousness of non-arahant or groups of consciousness associated with ignorance.

There are also refutations to such expression which can be pulled up;

“Then which things should an arahant attend to in an appropriate way?”

“An arahant should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Although, for an arahant, there is nothing further to do, and nothing to add to what has been done, still these things — when developed & pursued — lead both to a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now and to mindfulness & alertness.”

There are other Sutta wherein it is affirmed that an Arahant is not without vininnanakhanda and there is not a single expression in the canon saying that consciousness of an Arahant is not associated with Name & Form.

Expressions longing for and being associated with carry very different meaning and the way “associated with” is used in for example the Vibhanga Analysis of Aggregates;

Consciousness associated with painful feeling is gross; consciousness associated with pleasant also with neither-painful-nor-pleasant feelings is subtle. Consciousness associated with pleasant and painful feelings is gross; consciousness associated with neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling is subtle. SuttaCentral

It is imo therefore a disagreeable way to express; an Arahant is without delusion and does not long for name&form. Because it is imo naturally misunderstood when one says ‘consciousness of an arahant is not associated with namarupa’

inb4dead · January 8, 2020, 10:27pm

I regret making this topic because it’s probably very confusing and my own understanding of expression and meaning has evolved since. Having given this much thought i think the semantics of the verse itself where an answer is given to ‘where do phenomena not find a footing?’ is; ‘in that which isn’t included in the allness of the all’

Taken as a noun with an adjective which does seem to be the most reasonable thing to do then imo vinnanam anidassanam would be something like; ‘Consciousness not-appearing’ and this would make sense given that one is talking about the cessation of consciousness which is explicit in the later lines.

It can be summed up that i hold that the compound ‘vinnanam anidassanam’ is probably therein an adjective or descriptive characteristic/factor rather than the referrent, so the meaning when drawn out would read something like (simplified);

That [which isn’t included in the allness of the all] where ‘consciousness doesn’t appear’
[It] is luminous and boundless all-around.
There name & form gain no footing
With the cessation of consciousness
All is brought to an end or extinguished

Another reason to take it as adjective is that what isn’t included in the allness of the all is beyond objectification for it is said that ‘as far as sense-bases go that is as far as objectification goes’ and All is said to be the eye & forms, tongue & tastes, ear & sounds etc

Thus if vinnana is nirodha ceased, then name & form also ceases along with sankhara; thus the sense bases cease and so objectification.
One is warned not to objectify non-objectification and it is therefore reasonable to assume that when talking about that which isn’t included in the Allness of the All it would not be named per se.

karl_lew · January 9, 2020, 12:24am

The paradox of “objective not-ness” was also vexing to me. I found the following easier to understand since it gave both ends and referred to the middle:

AN6.61:12.4: “Contact, mendicants, is one end. The origin of contact is the second end. The cessation of contact is the middle. And craving is the seamstress,

Thanks for a fascinating thread!

inb4dead · January 9, 2020, 1:05am

I think the contact excerpt is to be understood in the context of something arising as one thing and ceasing as another; ‘as a monkey seeking fruit in the forest; letting go of one branch as it grabs another’. Thus contact therein is not one and the same contact but is also constant; in case of the monkey it is constantly in contact with a brach but the contact therein changes, arises as one thing and ceases as another.

Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what’s called ‘mind,’ ‘intellect,’ or ‘consciousness’ by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.

This is also why a cessation of contact in definitive sense is so special and leads to the discernment of what isn’t included in the allness of the all.

karl_lew · January 9, 2020, 1:44am

Not always. Here there is no constant contact. He seems quite aware. If he fails, he dies. But I understand what you say. His mind has contacted the next grip.

Viveka · January 9, 2020, 6:56am

Quite apart from the points discussed, Thank-you for having the honesty to post the below sentence

This is such an important real example of impermanence of views, and why arguing and fighting over them is pretty much a waste of time. This situation has happened to me so often, and I am sure that almost everyone would be able to reflect on how understanding changes with the gradual progress of the path - Thank-you

anon87721581 · January 9, 2020, 2:07pm

This apple is not green

‘0’ This number has no value

inb4dead · March 11, 2021, 12:07pm

I also think vinnanam anidassanam [not apparent] is analogue to vinnanam appatitthitena [not established]

It occurs here;

Suppose, bhikkhus, there was a house or a hall with a peaked roof, with windows on the northern, southern, and eastern sides. When the sun rises and a beam of light enters through a window, where would it become established?”

“On the western wall, venerable sir.”

“If there were no western wall, where would it become established?”

“On the earth, venerable sir.”

“If there were no earth, where would it become established?”

“On the water, venerable sir.”

“If there were no water, where would it become established?”

“It would not become established anywhere, venerable sir.”

“So too, bhikkhus, if there is no lust for the nutriment edible food … for the nutriment contact … for the nutriment mental volition … for the nutriment consciousness … consciousness does not become established there and come to growth. Where consciousness does not become established and come to growth … … I say that is without sorrow, anguish, and despair.” SuttaCentral

Another here:

"If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no base for consciousness. Consciousness, thus unestablished, not proliferating, not performing any function, is released. Udana Sutta: Exclamation

Another yet:

That, bhikkhus, is Mara the Evil One searching for the consciousness of the clansman Vakkali, wondering: ‘Where now has the consciousness of the clansman Vakkali been established?’ However, bhikkhus, with consciousness unestablished, the clansman Vakkali has attained final Nibbāna. SuttaCentral

I am very confident that this is the solution to the controversy and that the referent of the verse is the nibbananirodhadhatu which can be spoken of as entering into for sannavedananirodha attainments or as a extinguishment of aggregates for parinibbana

Patisambhidamagga, Nibbana-dhatu:

[“There are two kinds of relinquishment through cessation: relinquishment as giving up, and relinquishment as entering into. It gives up defilements and aggregates, thus it is relinquishment as giving up; cognizance enters cessation which is the nibbana principle thus it is relinquishment as entering into. These are the two kinds of relinquishment through cessation.”

Nirodhavasena dve vossaggaa: pariccaagavossaggo ca, pakkhandanavossaggo ca. Kilesa ca khandhe ca pariccajatiiti, pariccaagavossaggo; nirodhanibbaanadhaatuyaa cittam pakkhandatiiti. Pakkhandanavossaggo nirodhavasena ime dve vossaggaa.]

As for entering into one has this verse where a principle is spoken on as an element unknown to gods (much like vinnanam anidassanam is unknown to Brahma):

to this excellent thoroughbred of a man, absorbed in this way, the gods, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, pay homage even from afar: 'Homage to you, O thoroughbred man. Homage to you, O superlative man — you of whom we don’t know even what it is dependent on what it is you are absorbed.
Sandha Sutta: To Sandha

It’s the only element or principle not included in the allness of the all and unknown even to the gods lest they are also disciples of the foremost teacher.

It is the cessation principle which is void of delusion and seeing it with wisdom destroys taints. It is also referred to as the ‘asoka’ state and is directly known by one who can direct the mind to it.

inb4dead · November 6, 2021, 5:29pm

“Intangible” for anidassana might be good. It fits well with space being intangible as not fit to be painted

ahmad.hazairin · November 7, 2021, 10:31am

Please refer to AN 11.7

Numbered Discourses 11
1. Dependence

7. Percipient

Then Venerable Ānanda went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him:

“Could it be, sir, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this? They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. And yet they would still perceive.”

“It could be, Ānanda, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. And yet they would still perceive.”

“But how could this be, sir?”

“Ānanda, it’s when a mendicant perceives: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.’

That’s how a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. And yet they would still perceive.”

And then Ānanda approved and agreed with what the Buddha said. He got up from his seat, bowed, and respectfully circled the Buddha, keeping him on his right. Then he went up to Venerable Sāriputta, and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side and said to Sāriputta:

“Could it be, reverend Sāriputta, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this? They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth … And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. And yet they would still perceive.”

“It could be, Reverend Ānanda.”

“But how could this be?”

“Ānanda, it’s when a mendicant perceives: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.’ That’s how a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth … And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. And yet they would still perceive.”

“It’s incredible, it’s amazing! How the meaning and the phrasing of the teacher and the disciple fit together and agree without conflict when it comes to the chief matter! Just now I went to the Buddha and asked him about this matter. And the Buddha explained it to me in this manner, with these words and phrases, just like Venerable Sāriputta. It’s incredible, it’s amazing! How the meaning and the phrasing of the teacher and the disciple fit together and agree without conflict when it comes to the chief matter!”

Ratana · November 7, 2021, 1:57pm

Do you think nibbana is something to be perceived ?

inb4dead · November 7, 2021, 2:12pm

It would be a seeing with the Dhamma-Eye.

The Abhidhamma expression is that the vision there would be an analogical vision, it isn’t perception per definition but an analog to perception.

The sutta expression is that these are attainments classed as a cessation of perception & feeling, one is then said to be ‘sensitive to unalloyed pleasure’ yet there is nothing felt, hence it is analogical.

“And what, Ananda, is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that? There is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. This is another pleasure more extreme & refined than that. Now it’s possible, Ananda, that some wanderers of other persuasions might say, ‘Gotama the contemplative speaks of the cessation of perception & feeling and yet describes it as pleasure. What is this? How can this be?’ When they say that, they are to be told, ‘It’s not the case, friends, that the Blessed One describes only pleasant feeling as included under pleasure. Wherever pleasure is found, in whatever terms, the Blessed One describes it as pleasure.’”

This is what the Bodhisatta attained as an entering into under the Bodhi tree and emerged from after 7 days & 7 nights as a Buddha.

The word ‘nibbana’ is generally a removal of taints, sometimes the word is used referring to these attainments entered into because this ‘analogical seeing’ is without greed, anger & delusion and because it is by this seeing taints are removed in one who emerges from it.

Ratana · November 7, 2021, 3:00pm

I think when Buddha said “freed mind” or “a mind which is freed of corruption of defilements” he means exactly vinnanam anidassanam, what do you think ?

Like mn140
They understand: ‘If I were to apply this equanimity, so pure and bright, to the dimension of infinite space, my mind would develop accordingly. But that is conditioned. If I were to apply this equanimity, so pure and bright, to the dimension of infinite consciousness … nothingness … neither perception nor non-perception, my mind would develop accordingly. But that is conditioned.’

They neither make a choice nor form an intention to continue existence or to end existence. Because of this, they don’t grasp at anything in the world. Not grasping, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished.

Mn112
When it was freed, I knew it was freed. I understood: “Rebirth is ended; the spiritual journey has been completed; what had to be done has been done; there is no return to any state of existence.” That is how I know and see so that I have eradicated ego, possessiveness, and underlying tendency to conceit for this conscious body and all external stimuli.’

An3.32
“It could be, Ānanda, that a mendicant gains a state of immersion such that they have no ego, possessiveness, or underlying tendency to conceit for this conscious body; and no ego, possessiveness, or underlying tendency to conceit for all external stimuli; and that they’d live having attained the freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom where ego, possessiveness, and underlying tendency to conceit are no more.”

“But how could this be, sir?”

“Ānanda, it’s when a mendicant thinks: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.’

inb4dead · November 7, 2021, 3:35pm

I think that when they say;

"When it was freed, I knew it was freed. I understood: “Rebirth is ended; the spiritual journey has been completed; what had to be done has been done; there is no return to any state of existence.”

That refers to to recognizing that they have emerged from the 4th path attainment as an Arahant, afterall that is the final goal.

Usually emerging from the first path attainment is called ‘seeing the Deathless [Deathless denotes destruction of taints]’, attaining the Dhamna-Eye, penetrating to the Sorrowless [asoka] state, seeing with wisdom.

It is only the attainment of the 4th path that completely removes defilements and therefore only the Arahant has attained ‘removal of taints [nibbana]’ in that sense.

The lower path attainments realize nibbana only in as far as that they become absorbed in dependence on the nibbananirodhadhatu, cessation-extinguishment principle and removing some of their defilements when emerging.

I think vinnana anidassanam is synonymous with unconditioned element, that which is not included in the allness of the all, and it’s direct realization in this very life is described as being percepient thus ‘cessation of existence is nibbana’; or as directing the mind to the deathless element ‘this is peaceful…’; or it is explained as ‘consciousness unestablished’.

After it’s attainment some or all defilements are removed from the mind that attained it.

A Buddha can also enter into & emerge from cessation of perception & feeling but he has no defilements to be removed after emerging, therefore we can’t say that he attains a removal of taints as he has none.Technically Arahantship is called a Nibbana with residue which is only that by which he feels painful & pleasant feelings.

These are some of the circumstances that make it complicated and why Nibbana even tho sharing semantic properties with cessation of perception & feeling isn’t always used interchangibly.

To make it simple one can say that there are attainments that lie on the treshold of and are associated with Nibbana and the difference is in how they are approached, apprehended and what defilements are removed by the entering into & emerging from based on the extinguishment-cessation-principle.

Ratana · November 7, 2021, 4:28pm

I think this will bring us closer to advaita Vedanta which said that pure eternal consciousness do exist

This quote from mahasi sayadaw is similar to your view

Manual of insight page 464-466

Where water, earth, fire, and air do not gain a footing:
It is from here, that the streams [of phenomena] turn back,
Here that the round [of the defilements, kamma, and its
result] no longer revolves.
There, name-and-form ceases.
Where consciousness is signless, boundless, all-luminous,
That’s where earth, water, fire, and air find no footing,
There both long and short, small and great, fair and foul—
There “name-and-form” [mental and physical phenomena] are
wholly destroyed.
With the cessation of consciousness this is all destroyed.

The statement that nibbāna is “all-luminous” in this passage means that
it is completely cleansed of all defilements. Similar metaphors are used in
such expressions as “the light of wisdom” (paññā-āloka), “the luster of wis-
dom” (paññā-obhāsa), and “the torch of wisdom” (paññāpajjota). It is in
this same sense that the Buddha said, “Bhikkhus, the mind is luminous.”
The sense here is that nibbāna is always luminous. The mind and wisdom,
which possess an innate luminosity, can be soiled by defiling phenomena.
Nibbāna, however, which is the cessation of defilements or conditioned
phenomena, can never be connected with defiling phenomena. Therefore
there is no way that any of these phenomena can soil or defile nibbāna,
just as the sky can never be painted. As a result it is said that “nibbāna is
all-luminous.” To be straightforward, the meaning of the commentary and
subcommentary is only that nibbāna is absolutely not connected to the
defilements, or is completely cleansed of them.
So one should not misinterpret this statement to mean that nibbāna is
literally shining like the sun, moon, or stars, and that one sees this lumi-
nosity by means of path knowledge and fruition knowledge. This kind ofinterpretation would negate previous statement that nibbāna is signless,
would be inconsistent with its unique “signless” manifestation (animitta-
paccupaṭṭhāna), and would contradict Venerable Nāgasena’s answer to
King Milinda’s question about the nature of nibbāna. In fact this kind
of literal interpretation would be in opposition to all the Pāḷi texts and
commentaries that say that there is no materiality in nibbāna. In any event
the cessation of potential defilements and aggregates is not something
that is luminous and bright. If it were, the Pāḷi texts and commentaries
could easily have said that “nibbāna is luminous and bright.” Otherwise
they would not explain it with difficult names such as “destruction of lust”
(rāgakkhayo), “the peaceful ending of all conditioned phenomena” (sab-
basaṅkhārasamatho), “nonarising” (anuppādo), and so on, which are taken
to be opposites of conditioned phenomena. One should reflect deeply
about this!

That’s where earth, water, fire, and air find no footing,
There both long and short, small and great, fair and foul—
There “name-and-form” [mental and physical phenomena] are
wholly destroyed.
With the cessation of consciousness this is all destroyed.

These lines point out nibbāna, or cessation. The last line points out the
cause of this cessation. “Consciousness” here refers to both the death con-
sciousness (cuticitta) and the volitional mind (abhisaṅkhāraviññāṇa) at
the time of parinibbāna. All presently existing conditioned phenomena
come to an end due to the destruction of death consciousness at the time
of parinibbāna, and because there is no volitional mind that can produce
results, new phenomena do not arise but cease to exist. Thus, with the ces-
sation of these two kinds of consciousness, all conditioned phenomena
cease. This is like the cessation of the emission of light from an oil lamp
whose oil and wick have been completely consumed.
In summary:

Nissesa saṅkhāra vivekalakkhaṇaṃ
sabhala saṅkhata vidhura sabhāvaṃ
nibbāna metaṃ sugatana desitaṃ
jhāneyya saṅkhāranirodha
mattakaṃ.

The Buddha described nibbāna as having the characteristic
of being secluded from conditioned phenomena and as being
their complete opposite. To the wise, nibbāna is simply known
as the utter cessation of conditioned phenomena.

ahmad.hazairin · November 7, 2021, 4:34pm

Nibbana we can understand with two meanings:

When a being experiences the fading away (extinguishing) of the taint potential. In this sense nibbana has elements, namely nibbana-dhattu: aloba, adosa, amoha. A Sotapanna is said to be realizing nibbana for the first time in this sense, because there are mental fetters (samyojana) that are shed (nirodha): sakkhayaditthi, silabataparamasa & vicikiccha. In this sense, a noble disciple is called contemplating nibbana when he contemplates the extinguished taints of mind.
Nibbana in the sense that there are no conditions for the arising of mental and also physical formations (sankhara). This is achieved after an arahant dies (parinibbana).

Nibbana must be interpreted in the two ways above. Not in an ontological way.

inb4dead · November 7, 2021, 5:41pm

Many people misunderstand it in this way.

It is therefore important to emphasise the word analogical because ‘consciousness’ and ‘seeing’ are per definition impermanent, ‘consciousness’ is in no way eternal, constant or permanent.

These words are definitively tied to existence and existence only.

Eternalist view of permanent consciousness might be said to be analogical but then one should get to the bottom of this analogical sense to see whether it is a class of consciousness or really an analogy.

To do this one needs to examine exactly in whatever terms it is explained.

inb4dead · November 7, 2021, 5:53pm

I think first and foremost we have to treat it as a word and draw out it’s meaning & designation, synonyms and whatnot. This is how it’s done in the texts;

“Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion.’ Of what now, venerable sir, is this the designation?”

“This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way.”

When this was said, that bhikkhu said to the Blessed One: “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the Deathless, the Deathless.’ What now, venerable sir, is the Deathless? What is the path leading to the Deathless?”

“The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the Deathless. This Noble Eightfold Path is the path leading to the Deathless; that is, right view … right concentration.”

Therefore when someone asks ‘what is Nibbana?’, we should merely state it’s designation.

Having grasped it’s designation and semantic property we can proceed to analyze it’s applied use and draw out the meaning & referent in this or that circumstance.

This particular designation will evidently have qualified usages.

Example;

Reverend, they say that ‘extinguishment is visible in this very life’.

“‘Sandiṭṭhikaṁ nibbānaṁ, sandiṭṭhikaṁ nibbānan’ti, āvuso, vuccati.

In what way did the Buddha say extinguishment is visible in this very life?”

Kittāvatā nu kho, āvuso, sandiṭṭhikaṁ nibbānaṁ vuttaṁ bhagavatā”ti?

“First, take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures … enters and remains in the first absorption.

“Idhāvuso, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi …pe… paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.

To this extent the Buddha said that extinguishment is visible in this very life in a qualified sense. …

Furthermore, take a mendicant who, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end.

Puna caparaṁ, āvuso, bhikkhu sabbaso nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṁ samatikkamma saññāvedayitanirodhaṁ upasampajja viharati, paññāya cassa disvā āsavā parikkhīṇā honti.

To this extent the Buddha said that extinguishment is visible in this very life in a definitive sense.”

Ettāvatāpi kho, āvuso, sandiṭṭhikaṁ nibbānaṁ vuttaṁ bhagavatā nippariyāyenā”ti.

There are furthermore several instances of peculiar use and compound terms that need to be analyzed and reconciled such as ‘nibbana with residue’, ‘nibbana without residue’, ‘nibbananirodha’, 'nibbana [as pleasure where nothing is felt] and ‘parinibbana’.

Furthermore the semantic properties of ‘removal’ overlap with the semantic properties of ‘destruction’, the semantic properties of ‘extinguishment’ overlap with the semantic properties of ‘cessation’ and this is reflected in the text terminology and needs to be fully appreciated.

Patisambhidamagga makes a clear distinction between nibbananirodha as giving up and nibbananirodha as entering into.

It is quite complicated to say the least but it’s certainly not incomprehensible.

Sunyo · November 8, 2021, 4:06am

In this thread I share my thoughts on these seemingly ever-elusive words, viññāṇa anidassana. I don’t think it refers to nibbāna at all, but to the state of boundless consciousness, sometimes called “the sixth jhāna”. I mean, it’s even specifically called ‘boundless’ (ananta)… what more do you want?! (Turns out there is quite a bit more that points to this.)

As to viññāṇa appatiṭṭha, see here. These words are indeed about final nibbāna. However, the particular translation “unestablished consciousness” is quite misleading. Better is “consciousness is not established”, as Ven. Sujato has it. Because it refers not to the existence, but to the cessation of consciousness. The few suttas that have the words place them in the sequence of Dependent Cessation exactly where we normally find the cessation of consciousness. (E.g. SN12.39) I further translate it as “consciousness is not planted”, because I take it to refer to the simile of the seed of consciousness, which for normal people gets “established” (i.e. planted) in a next realm at rebirth (AN3.76), but doesn’t get planted for enlightened ones (and so then ceases, because nāmarupa ceases).

So in both cases the Pali can easily be interpreted in ways that align with all other suttas. Some, however, interpret them in a “unique way” (to literally quote The Island: an anthology of the Buddha’s teachings on nibbana o ). With all reverence to those who do, but to me that’s not following the Buddha’s teaching in the Parinibbāna Sutta (DN16), when he tells us to compare questionable teachings to the rest of the suttas. (In this case, to see how questionable “consciousnesses” can be seen in light of all others.)

Those technicalities aside, please know that translations are always shaped by the translator’s view. Here are some alternative translations, on whether there may be any “nibbāna consciousness”:

The group (khandha) of consciousness includes any kind of consciousness whatsoever—whether past, present, or future; to do with the inside or outside world; coarse or subtle; lowly or sublime; here or elsewhere. (MN109, me)

Any kind of consciousness at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near: this is called the aggregate of consciousness. (MN109, Ven. Sujato)

Note also that this phrase is used for all five aggregates. So when it is translated in a way that seems to allow for a consciousness outside of time and so forth (like Ven. Thanissaro’s translation), you also have to allow for a similar timeless form, feeling, perception, and sankhāra that’s outside of time! Obviously, that is not what the statement is intended to say.

The phrase simply means that ‘consciousness’ includes all types of consciousness (just like ‘form’ means any kind of form, and so forth). So that there is no type of consciousness—whether real or imagined—that’s outside of the aggregate.

Consciousness that is permanent, constant, eternal, unchanging, that the wise in the world agree upon not to exist, and I also say it does not exist. (SN22.94, me)

Consciousness that is permanent, everlasting, eternal, and imperishable. This is what the astute agree on as not existing, which I too say does not exist. (SN22.94, Ven. Sujato)

Since no sutta says anything remotely like “PS. there is a conciousness outside of the aggregates” we can just take this statement at face value.

Also note that “permanent, everlasting, eternal, and imperishable” are simply synonyms, so if we argued for a type consciousness that isn’t eternal, it would mean that that consciousness then is impermanent, not lasting, and perishable.

OK. That’s enough about that.

BTW, @inb4dead, thanks for letting us know you changed your view. That’s a courageous thing to do!

inb4dead · November 8, 2021, 10:49am

I think it’s a trifle and merely a matter of translating this one word the meaning of which is imo made rather apparent by the verse itself.