Science, Scientism & Dharma

“You are your own teacher. Looking for teachers can’t solve your own doubts. Investigate yourself to find the truth - inside, not outside. Knowing yourself is most important.”
― Ajahn Chah

“Do everything with a mind that lets go. Don’t accept praise or gain or anything else. If you let go a little you will have a little peace; if you let go a lot you will have a lot of peace; if you let go completely you will have complete peace.”
― Ajahn Chah

In the Buddha’s teachings it’s made clear: that which keeps us from complete peace is the same thing that keeps us from understanding reality. What keeps us from complete peace? Answer: the perversions of perception - our perceptions are erroneous. It is also the perversions - the errors - of perception that keep us from ‘seeing’ reality. When we discover - through knowing ourselves - that which keeps us from complete peace and, let it go, we then realise the nature of reality. We realise it by being lost to it - this cannot be cognised or said but its the best thing since sliced bread! Why? When you ‘see’ reality - when the doors of perception have been cleansed - you also realise complete peace. Science and Phenomenology do not offer this ‘package deal’ but its there in the Buddha-Dhamma - make your choice?

sliced bread

What would be the point in understanding reality if it does not set you free? It would be tragic if we couldn’t see the forest for the trees. Our greed, hatred and, delusion keeps us from enjoying our freedom - from uttering our paean of joy - sharing our poetry of liberation. Lets get to work?

The problem is not that our microscopes cannot see small-enough and its not that our telescopes cannot see far enough. The Buddha-Dhamma teaches: you do not arrive at that which is the ‘Brahma-Satya’ (highest truth) that way. In order to realise the highest truth we need the right method of inquiry - its called the threefold training. We need to observe ourselves in ‘real time’ to solve the riddle of existence and get the ‘cosmic joke’ - and it’s entirely on us!

“I tell you, friend, that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach the far end of the universe… But at the same time, I tell you that there is no making an end of disappointment and suffering without reaching the end of the universe (world). It is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception and intellect, that I declare that: There is the universe (world), The origination of the universe, The cessation of the universe, and, The path of practice leading to the cessation of the universe.” [This is another wording of the ennobling Four Noble Truths.]

"It is not to be reached by traveling in space [small or large]. And, it is not without reaching the end of the universe that there is release from disappointment and suffering.

“So truly the wise one, an expert with regard to the cosmos, a knower of the end of the cosmos, having fulfilled the holy life, calmed, knowing the cosmos’ end, doesn’t long for this cosmos or for any other.” - the Buddha

Yes for me the meditative Buddha Dhamma with its accompanying texts continues to be a wonderfully deep and well rounded ‘philosophy’, like plunging into a bottomless lake. I use it as a guide for thinking phenomenologically rather than applying Occidental methods and concepts the other way and muddying its still waters with the confusions of comparative philosophy.

I do understand it via English translations of course, and many of those appear to have a neo-Kantian approach to interpreting the original Pali. There’s also a history of mid to late 19th C German translations of Sanskrit and Pali texts infiltrating the philosophical Zeitgeist of the times, quite possibly influencing Nietzsche’s philosophy of the will to power and the eternal return that was itself rather influential for Heidegger.

I am however looking into the translation of sabbe sankhara as the ‘phenomenal world’ which I understand phenomenologically. But this phenomenal world is not really a part of scientific thinking, although it’s starting to appear with the debates over the ‘hard problem of consciousness’.

But then I also think it’s important to maintain that science is not the philosophy of science which in its most reductive form of physicalism totally reduces the phenomenal world to either an illusion (Dennett) or via various forms of dualism to an ‘internal mental process’ like a VR movie playing ‘in your head’ that is supposed to arise in individual bodies out of electrochemical brain processes.

These two ways of approaching the problem of consciousness would seem to me to be rather incompatible especially where the phenomenal world is conceived as something that somehow occurs in a Cartesian multisensory omni-theatre in the brain! I very much agree with Dennett that this metaphor is ludicrous but still very stubbornly a part of the debate.

I have not endorsed Cartesian dualism. I have also not endorsed any position that logically entails Cartesian dualism. I have endorsed positions that are logically consistent with some varieties of dualism (although not Cartesian dualism). But these positions are also consistent with some varieties of physicalism. I have maintained a thorough agnosticism about the ultimate ontological ground of phenomenal consciousness. I do not believe any conclusions about that grounding can be drawn from the phenomena themselves.

As I have repeatedly emphasized, to say that x exists external to y is to say no more than that it is possible for x to exist even if y does not. Or in other words, x exists external to y if and only if the existence of x is not dependent on the existence of y. Clearly to say that x exists external to y does not entail that there is some third thing z such that y exists internal to z. This is an elementary logical point.

So when I say that my hand’s existence is external to my conscious perceptual experiences of my hand, I have asserted no more nor less than the claim that my hand can exist even when I have no conscious perceptual experiences of my hand. This does not entail that my conscious perceptual experiences exist internal to some other, third mysterious thing.

No, it strikes me as a boringly commonplace philosophical view. There really is not much basis for the contrary idea that there is a metaphysically necessary connection between my hand, or any other physical object, and my conscious perceptual experiences of such objects. The latter are metaphysically independent events that are merely caused by the former, and causal relations are contingent features of the natural order that happens to obtain. They are not metaphysically necessary connections.

It appears we disagree. For me, it seems quite natural and obvious that my hand is not a phenomenal event. My hand is not identical to my conscious perception of my hand. I think this is actually a fairly popular philosophical position.

A tendency toward solipsism seem to be an occupational hazard of Buddhists. Perhaps meditating so much by ourselves makes it easier for us to forget that our own personal mental corners of existence are not the whole of the universe.

Despite this forgetfulness, once we and our meditating minds have passed from the scene, the world and it’s many other beings will continue wandering along.

“On hearing the Teachings, the wise become perfectly purified, like a lake deep, clear and still.” - Dhammapada

@zeug, I’m usually the only one debating or explaining the internal/external issue. I’m happy I’m not the only one. :smile:

I think it comes down to—and in line to Buddhist teachings—that mind and matter are inseparable. Based on Dependent Origination (paṭiccasamuppāda), mentality and corporeality (nāma-rūpa) are a single link.

Therefore, the mind cannot exist without the external/physical/objective world; while matter cannot exist without the internal/non-physical/subective world.

Furthermore, perception is all of existence. Such as in SN 35.23.

And what, bhikkhus, is the all? The eye and forms, the ear and sounds, the nose and odours, the tongue and tastes, the body and tactile objects, the mind and mental phenomena. This is called the all.
— SN 35.23 (transl., Bhikkhu Bodhi)

:laughing:
The Buddha had something to say about this:

“…when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, ‘non-existence’ with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, ‘existence’ with reference to the world does not occur to one.” SN12.15

with metta,

1 Like

That is a powerful teaching - THANKYOU

It can be understood on more than one level and I think they are equally valid.

The first: is it worth the time of day endlessly thinking about these things and getting nowhere fast? The second is about the insubstantiality and impermanence of the world. Hence, the futility of clinging. Not only to views but in any shape or form?

We have missed the middle-way as soon as we try to reify or substantiate the world by clinging to the physical, the material - as ultimately real. Some cling to a spiritual notion i.e. the world has a metaphysical ground - the ground of being. Reality is groundless - insubstantial and unreliable - there is no lasting refuge in this world. We are a movement in the winds of change.

We don’t need to deny the world - just let it go. We don’t need to affirm the world - just treat it with kindness and care. We don’t need to substantiate anything - or cling to anything.

Metaphorically speaking, we could think of the phenomenal display - we call the world - as wind in the atmosphere. Sometimes the wind is turbulent - it can also be cool and refreshing. We have the phenomena we call cyclones or hurricanes. At the centre of these swirling air currents there is an ‘eye’ which is calm and empty. When there is self-grasping there is the ‘appearance’ of an ‘I’ that is empty - insubstantial. It sometimes appears to be at the centre of experience as if everything is happening to my-self. As if, there is more than a sense of self? We may have the impression, that a ‘self’ is a substantive entity to which all experiences happen?

Science has demonstrated that our sense of self is an after-thought! The basis of what we experience happens and then they become self-conscious happenings. The Buddha’s teachings on consciousness also provide us with a ‘step by step’ process. This may have implications in relation to - what is called - the hard problem of consciousness? However, the science - with regard to self-awareness - does not contradict the Buddha’s teachings.

The passing experiences are taken to belong to the ‘I’ - the sense of self. In reality, there is just the evanescent display of passing experience. The sense of self gives rise to the belief that the ‘I’ is being blown about - hither and tither. However, like the moving air in the atmosphere - with its currents and ripples - ‘experience’ does not belong to anyone. There is no such thing as ‘my’ experiences. There are just experiences - some are remembered and some are not. Personal stories are ‘put together’ through drawing on that which has been remembered - and often modified.

When there is no more clinging and identification the stream of consciousness comes to an end. The understanding of ‘ending’ happens by degrees. In Jhana the sense of self disappears and later reappears. This is the raw-data that is gathered that produces a deeper understanding of where the practice is going as it unfolds in this life. It is heading towards cessation - Nibbana - complete peace at last!

We are like the breeze - an evanescent experience that is felt but insubstantial. There is a display of passing events, momentary happenings, just like everything else - belonging to no one. No parachute no ground - enjoy the breeze!

2 Likes

Your notion of what constitutes a ‘phenomenal event’ is obviously somewhat different from mine, so I’d be interested in unpacking exactly what you mean by it.

For ‘most people’ their hand is what they perceive there at the end of their arm. In this sense the perceptual appearance of the hand, which is the phenomenal experience, simply is the hand. Again this is what is called naive realism in the philosophy of mind. So it makes ordinary sense to say that my hand is identical with this hand here at the end of my arm (waves hand). In this everyday sense the phenomenal hand is the physical hand.

But even for a dualist it is somewhat tortured grammar to state that ‘my hand is not a phenomenal event’, but I sort of get what you mean to say. Your perception of the hand is not the physical flesh and bone object that exists in your physical world that is somehow ‘external’ to that perception. That your hand exists even while you sleep is a good thing, and that would be a condition for the possibility of seeing it there at the end of your arm again when awake. But I still fail to see how this makes the physicality of your phenomenal hand ‘external’ to that hand.

I would say you push your dualist point too far, but in the end it’s a question of semantics. Effectively you have two of the same hand, at least from my perspective, the phenomenal hand and its physically ‘external’ flesh and bone hand.

It makes perfectly natural and ordinary language sense to say you have only the one hand though, and that your phenomenal hand just has physical properties associated with it, not that there are two of them, nor that the actual hand is physical and the perceived hand … I guess an unreal semblance? I also understand you wish to remain ‘agnostic’ by not actually saying anything about the phenomenal hand, although your dualism does explicitly extract it from the ‘real’ and ‘external’ physical world and that simply is your metaphysical position with regard to the reality of phenomena in relation to their physicality.

But what is it that you understand by the term ‘phenomenal experience’? In the hard problem of consciousness this experience is the immediate perceptual experience you might have when opening your eyes, you presumably have a field of vision and a phenomenal experience of seeing phenomenal things with phenomenal colours, shading and form. There is ‘something it is like to be DKervick’, existing within a totality of perceptual experiences that together make up your phenomenal world.

If DKervick was a philosophical zombie then when it opened its eyes it would not experience anything phenomenal, much like a robot is just a machine, or a rock is a mineral, or perhaps even a cabbage which while alive can hardly be said to be sentient. Zombie DKervick, who exists solely in your ‘external’ physical world until you observe it standing ‘there’, would however still react to the electromagnetic radiation that hits its eyeballs sending electrochemical signals cascading through its zombie brain that send signals to its muscles to respond, presumably appropriately, much like its non-zombie self.

Is this how you understand conscious i.e., phenomenal experience?

It doesn’t. I don’t know exactly what you mean by the “physicality” of my hand, if not the property my hand possesses of being a physical object. But I haven’t anywhere drawn a distinction between my hand and the physicality of my hand, whatever that is. I have only distinguished my hand, which is a physical object, from my perceptual experience of the hand, which is a phenomenon of consciousness. I have affirmed repeatedly that these are two different things, and that the latter is only caused by the former. This seems to me like a view which is very commonly held by very many philosophers, both physicalist and dualist philosophers. Even physicalist philosophers, who are committed to claim that the visual or somatic perceptual experience of my hand is a physical event, will typically distinguish that physical event from the hand itself. And of course dualist philosophers also make this distinction. They all hold that the hand is external to the “mind”, whether they conceive the mind in physical or non-physical terms.

Getting into side-discussions about naive realism seems like a distraction, since I have not defended anything like naive realism. I also have not defended any view according to which my hand has both a physical aspect and a conscious phenomenal aspect. The event that is my conscious perceptual experience of my hand is quite a distinct thing from my hand itself, not some aspect or feature of my hand itself “intentionally in-existing” in my mind. The relationship between the hand and the perception of the hand is only a causal one, and thus metaphysically contingent.

Well except that one of them is actually a hand and the other is only a conscious mental event that is taken as a representation or evidential indicator of the hand. So this is no more puzzling or odd than the fact that there is a picture of my dog on my wall which is a completely different thing from my dog himself. My dog could continue to exist even if the picture ceased existing, and the picture could continue to exist even if the dog ceased existing. Each has an existence that is external to the existence of the other.

Yes, pretty much. But I think it is more plausible to hypothesize that the phenomenal experience plays a crucial causal role in the causal economy of my ordinary human functioning, and so while the existence of a zombie is a bare conceptual possibility, it is not a nomic or causal possibility. I suspect once we have a more complete understanding of how conscious phenomena are integrated into the entire causal system that constitutes a human being, we will see that one could no more “extract” the conscious experiences from a human being, while preserving its functioning, than one could extract a heart from a human body, while preserving its functioning. That the blood could flow, as if by magic, around a human body, even in the absence of a heart, is a only a bare conceptual possibility, but not a real anatomical possibility given the way human organisms are actually constructed.

But we don’t as yet have this kind of deep causal understanding of conscious phenomena, and the way in which they are causally integrated into a functioning human organism. All we have are a few relatively superficial causal regularities and relationships. That’s why we need to keep doing the science.

Ok, the physical hand ‘causes’ the phenomenal hand to appear now… or as you put it later the phenomenal hand is a ‘mental representation’ of the physical hand, a mere appearance like a photo of the real thing. So now you’re a representationalist as well? And your physical hand does not actually exist anywhere in your phenomenal world but rather it exists as an a priori concept, as an ‘external physicality’ beyond empirical experience.

Thus phenomena, which are all you directly know in your empirical experience of this phenomenal world, are like ‘pictures’ that represent a physical world ‘external’ to or beyond the sensory, a suprasensory world. Like heaven is for the god believers but minus a god, something conceptual, an idea, or perhaps a myth? But this dogmatic faith in a world beyond our senses is presumably more useful for you than a belief in a god realm because it somehow explains your scientism better than a god could?

And again we’re precisely back where we started. And just to reiterate, your belief system is not scientific but rather metaphysical, it does not represent the sciences but a subset of philosophical thought that is itself rather contentious. The sciences have no need for this metaphysics, it does nothing for the various empirical methodologies and actual physical theories, but it could explain some of the history of science as it developed out of natural philosophy.

For me, your creation story is a form of myth making in the Quinean sense, and actually quite useless for doing science or at very least certainly not necessary, and this is also a valid view in the sciences and various analytic philosophies. The fact that this myth still holds people’s attention is testament to the deep metaphysical confusion we all experience when trying to think about the relation between the phenomenal world and our physical bodies.

Which brings me back to the philosophy of mind and the hard problem of consciousness. As regards your notion of phenomenal experience as representational mere appearances I’d be very much interested in your answers:

  1. Where and how do these phenomenal pictures of yours occur? If ‘in my mind’ what is that exactly and where does that occur? For example is there a place in your brain where these mind pictures are projected to your mind, a perceiving self?
  2. Given that these phenomena aren’t, in your own words, physical due to physical objects being necessarily ‘external’ to them, how can those external physical processes cause non-physical processes? I understand you think that science will eventually include them within the physical realm but any rough idea will do, a ball park guesstimate? Panpsychism perhaps? The physical to phenomenal causal chain for visual phenomena would go something like:

Electromagnetism → retinal stimulation → NaK pump neuronal network → ?

Dear Zeug, I have seen zombies in movies and they never seem to “respond, presumably appropriately, much like a non-zombie self.” Unless, there is a culture I have not heard about that is not offended by the eating of human brains. My father used to like eating brains but not human ones - to my knowledge.

Are you saying that the visual perception of the hand is separate from the hand itself i.e. organised in a different part of the brain - the visual cortex - perhaps? However, there must be an interactive field of neural events connecting all these forms of neural processing - correct? We would have to say that every neuron that has been stimulated is a separate-event and therefore, where does the holistic awareness of the hand take place? Is it distributed throughout the neural network or does it take place in a discrete association area within the brain? What do you have in mind?

The nervous system extends into the hands and these nerves receive and send messages to the brain. What part of the ‘physical event’ you mentioned above, is separate from the hand? I guess we could say there is processing of information taking place in the brain that is not located in the hand. I am not sure that a physicalist model would separate the nervous information coming and going from the hand from the experience of the hand? What do you mean by the hand itself? The nerves are part of the hand itself - are you talking about other parts of the hand? What parts of the hand are separate from the experience of the hand - this seems to be what your are saying?

Are you positing hypothetical possibilities that you have no ‘real’ idea about i.e. conjectures and speculations that you find interesting and compelling?

1 Like

Everything has its own neural correlate- if you can think about it, fMRI can find a place(s) in your brain which lights up the most, to that thought. This includes fairy stories like the Self and the Flying spaghetti monster! None of these neural correlates remain lit permanently- showing clearly they arise and pass. They exist only when thought of.

with metta

1 Like

Yes Mat, but I heard it is not that straightforward. Sometimes, the same neurons can light up when to different thoughts are involved - at different times. There is no one-to-one correspondence in all instances. This means that different thoughts can have a relationship to the same neuronal assemblage. Different thoughts but the same location lighting up? This suggests a correlation between mental events and brain-states but not a one-to-one correspondence. The mind may make use of the brain as a means of transmission? When there are brain-lesions different kinds of mental activity may not find expression through that damaged area. It is a science - in progress - with many questions as yet unanswered. They may never find the answers to many difficult questions. When they can make a human being have a specific thought like: a ‘flying spaghetti monster’ they will have demonstrated that that mental-event is something they can create or induce through a manipulation of the brain. The physicalists would then have demonstrated their speculative conjectures.

Correct. The brain might be a signalling point, rather than the origin of these ‘signals’.

The fact that five aggregates can represent anything and everything except Nibbana, means that there needn’t be an infinite number of places in the brain to ‘represent’ everything (in the universe). The five aggregates would be placeholders to build up various aspects of one concept, and present it, as if ‘fully formed’.

with metta

1 Like

It doesn’t exist as an a priori concept. It exists in the actual physical world of space, time, matter-energy, wave functions or whatever else is out there. (The progress of science keeps revealing more.) It is not beyond empirical experience. We are in constant contact with physical objects through experience - including non-conscious experience. It’s just that the experiences themselves are not the objects. We make judgments about the many objects that are indirectly presented to us on the basis of (in part) the conscious experiences that are directly presented to us.

The conscious phenomena are not pictures in any literal sense. The manners and degrees to which they are similar to the objects they cause is always open to doubt and revised understanding. But they are the evidential triggers for our judgments about the presence of physical objects. The concepts we employ in describing those objects thoroughly often differ greatly from the visual concepts we employ intuitively, based on our experience, on first seeing the object.

This is not a dogmatic belief. It’s a belief drawn from an appraisal of the most successful sciences of the physical world. The concepts employed in the careful scientific description of a physical object like a hand do not give us any basis for thinking that the object requires any external perceivers in order to exist, or has any essential relation to such perceivers. mind-independent consciousness-independent existence of the physical is a consequence of the conceptual framework actually used by physics.

On my way to work now, but will answer the two questions you pose later.

That’s exactly what I’m trying to get my head around… how to think sabbe sankhara as external to the physical body such that the body reflects the physical properties of phenomenal experience. We are in the phenomenal world, as it seems we are, rather than the phenomenal world being produced by and thus ‘in’ each individual clump of brain meat.