Science, Scientism & Dharma

J[quote=“zeug, post:53, topic:6875”]
Where and how do these phenomenal pictures of yours occur? If ‘in my mind’ what is that exactly and where does that occur? For example is there a place in your brain where these mind pictures are projected to your mind, a perceiving self?
[/quote]

We don’t know. That’s one of the motives for the revitalization for the science of consciousness of conscioussness, as its being developed and reported in some of the journals we mentioned before. The phenomena of consciousness are presented to us with an intrinsic phenomenal character, but that doesn’t tell us much about what other properties they might have.

Just to be clear again, I have not asserted that the phenomena of consciousness are non-physical, nor have I asserted that they are physical. My hand is certainly a physical object, and my conscious visual experience of my hand is not my hand, since my hand’s existence does not depend on its being perceived. But whether or not the conscious experience turns out after further existence to consist is some other recognizably physical stuff, or to be something wholly different, or to resist decisive theorization and classification altogether, only time will tell. It is not the role of the philosopher to issue a priori restrictions on the future contents of science, or engage in a lot of armchair speculation about that future. We can only help by clarifying the conceptual landscape of what already appears to be known.

I have offered no theory of what the visual perception of the hand consists in, or whether or not it is even a physical event. But I think we clearly do know that it is not identical to existence of the hand itself, because when I close my eyes the visual phenomenon ceases, even though the hand continues. Whether that is because they are two different physical events, or one physical event and one non-physical event, is a question about which I offer no hypothesis.

[quote=“laurence, post:55, topic:6875”]
I am not sure that a physicalist model would separate the nervous information coming and going from the hand from the experience of the hand?[/quote]

Yes, that’s possibly true. Although if it turns out that one can cause very convincing somatic experiences of a hand by stimulating the brain directly, even when the usual neural connections to the hand are not active (as in the case of phantom limb phenomena) then that is some reason for thinking that if phenomenal experience conscious experiences are neural phenomena, their nature does not depend ontologically on the neural activity in my hand and arm, but in most ordinary cases the dependency is only causal.

So you are saying: this is how it appears to you! You have no hypothesis or theory as to how this takes place. These are your speculative conjectures?

@Zeug '“we are in the phenomenal world” - how do you know this? who are you referring to specifically? where is this ‘we’ located in the phenomenal world?

ahankaramamankara

translation: I-making, mine-making

This is how it appears to me given my knowledge and understanding of the current state of physics and brain science, and the results of trying to square that knowledge with the limited additional knowledge one obtains by directly attending to one’s own conscious experiences, and asking others about their conscious experiences. One is left with a lot of unresolved mysteries requiring further exploration.

So this is your way of looking at the question/questions based on your experience i.e. this is the way it ‘appears’ to an entity labelled Dan.

Just like a hand, a table is defined by its use. We do handy things with our hands. To a hungry-carnivore our hand might be perceived as breakfast, lunch or, dinner! These eyes - ‘I’ refer to as ‘my’ own - have glanced at a ‘coffee table’ in this room where this computer is being tapped on by two wittle-hands. It could be made to look like a child’s-bed? In fact, it would be a child’s-bed if it was used for that purpose. The thing is, did ‘I’ see the table/bed? Or, did the mind impute that an ‘I’ was seeing? Science tells us the experience happened first and the self-consciousness happened as an *after-thought.

All of this is as it ‘appears’ - even if we reduce the table/bed to sawdust do we find its essential reality? Even if we reduce the hand to protoplasm or further, do we get at its essential reality ‘in and of’ itself?

Maybe, hand and table are functional cognitive-shortcuts? We may use many cognitive-shortcuts that are good enough to fulfil our basic needs and for *survival-purposes? In other words, they serve a purpose that allows us to stay alive long enough to finish this conversation - we live in hope! Of this much, we can be reasonably sure: the notions we have about reality have not endangered our survival - as a body/mind process and the species’ survival - up to this point. This situation may change?

The first lecture in psychology I attended the lecturer read an account of an interview between a psychiatrist and a patient. The psychiatrist asked the patient to put his hands on the table between them and the patient cooperated. He then asked the patient: how many hands do you see? The patient answered: three! He was then asked to count how many hands he saw on the desk: 1, 2, 3 - this takes some explaining?

‘We’ are an open-question? Our questions and answers will never be the real-thing - in and of itself - they are merely questions and answers. Our descriptions are not the described. The finger is pointing at the moon! Asking questions is something we do to pass the time or, for more important purposes. Trees grow towards the sun and people ask questions - its a natural impulse.

It would appear - in the modern world - our thinking and the solutions we derive from it, to increase our comfort and wellbeing are not working that well? Our cognitive short-cuts are cutting us all out of the ‘picture’. When our picture seems to work we are onto a good-thing but this does not mean we are seeing reality. The Buddha taught: if we see - BE - reality perfectly, we arrive at complete peace, then all our problems are solved permanently.

In the process of correcting the picture we have of ourselves we completely disappear from the picture - we become so relaxed and at ease, serene and content that our sense of self dissolves. It turns out that there is a relationship between our sense of self and our discontent - this was the Buddha’s brilliant discovery. Our sense of ourselves as a ‘someone going somewhere’ is reified through ‘bhava-tanha’ (thirst for being).

When we completely leave the picture objectivity also collapses - this is not something to be believed but discovered. It is not a conjecture but an actual happening in the life of a practitioner of the Buddha-Dhamma. To be known by the wise each for themselves. The full implications of this discovery are only realised after-the-fact. It is a complete discontinuity in the stream of consciousness - a getting beyond the picture of reality to the actuality - the truth. There is only openness - without a centre or a periphery - no need for further adjustments to clarify the picture. Welcome home!

A phantom hand is not a real thing. We should distinguish logically between:

  1. I seem to feel something at the end of my arm.

  2. There is some thing x, such that I seem to feel x at the end of my arm.

The first doesn’t entail the latter.

Correct - but we have not established the nature of the thing in itself - that remains a conjecture. I am not saying your conjectures are incorrect I am merely pointing out that this is how it ‘appears’ to an entity ‘merely labelled’ Dan. These appearances are a phenomenal reality. You can lay claim to them if you like - that is up to who?

It’s not just how it “appears” to me, I’m not going get into endless circles of arguments with radical subjectivists.

I agree with you - it is not just a subjective happening. I am not a subjectivist - that is a misconception. I am asking questions about the nature of the subject and the object - welcome to Buddha-Dhamma - this is what we do in Buddhism. I suspect, they also do this in cognitive science. ‘You’ are a lover of the science and so am ‘I’ - ‘you’ love the Dhamma and ‘I’ do to - all this should be questioned and not taken for granted. Let us start by recognising our underlying assumptions i.e. how we are making sense of things. Buddhism teaches that this is possible but not in a laboratory that we say is ‘out there’ but in this place we refer to as ‘in here’. I am questioning subjectivity and objectivity. This is a bit different from the tack you and Zeug have been exploring. You seem to be emphasising what ‘we’ call the objective world - the world of independent and autonomous things in interaction with each other in the physical universe - correct? Zeug is primarily interested in the nature of experience - as a subjective happening - correct? We can ‘think’ about things in this way but we will never get at that truth via this process. One take on *M-theory posits the existence of a single-vibrating membrane that is the underlying basis for all the diverse appearances of things in the universe. Its a wild-notion for sure - but truth may be stranger than fiction? I am ‘open’ to that possibility because I really do not ‘know’ what reality is - this is the actual state of affairs. This is not a conjecture! We need to be able to distinguish between facts and fantasies - even scientific ones - don’t you think?

*Heterotic M-theory has been used to construct models of brane cosmology in which the observable universe is thought to exist on a brane in a higher dimensional ambient [space].

No, I don’t really. :slight_smile:

Science tells us that the basis of our experience happens first and, self-consciousness happens as an after-thought. The Buddha’s teachings on consciousness also provide us with an account of a ‘step by step’ process. Consciousness is (produced) as a consequence of a process. There is the phenomenal happening and then we make sense of it! Did you hear that? We do not know conclusively the ‘actual’ nature of this phenomena THAT WE EXPERIENCE and call: the world (that’s a fact not a conjecture). Science has not got to the bottom of that rabbit-hole - it may never get there? The whole of reality could be a single vibrating membrane - according to one take on *M-theory. It is an ongoing area of inquiry in Science - one that we all find interesting. Science is always a ‘best case scenario’ - it deals with statistical probabilities and explanations derived from other procedures e.g. field studies. Science does not tell us ‘this is the truth’ of the matter - it tells us, this is what we have come to believe as a consequence of the interpretation of our experimental findings, 1) some of these findings are compelling, 2) some are interesting and, 3) some are works in progress! We really need to distinguish clearly between these 3 or we can get a little confused about science.

This goes to the question: what is scientism? The practitioners of scientism like to ‘claim’ they see the truth - the final actual conclusion about how things really are - be careful regarding this tendency. Scientism exists in a parasitic relationship with science. It exploits the human weakness to want to ‘know’ as a consequence of a fear of the unknown. The fragile and false-ego finds a sense of security in the known. It is in the habit of making truth-claims on a regular basis - I am right and you are wrong - and so it goes … This all-to-human tendency can lead us astray!

Scientism has now ‘infested’ Buddhism and it has the same eroding effect there that it has in science. Scientism is the dumming-down of ‘science’ and the ‘Buddha-Dhamma’ - it is not compatible with these 2 fields of open-inquiry. Those who are interested in science cannot be selective with their facts - accepting those facts that fit their theories and giving short-shrift to inconvenient truths.

Why do we experience ‘existential’ dukkha on silent retreats? I am not saying you do - but it is not uncommon. The imaginary self gives the impression that we are being deprived - there is a ‘lack’ of sufficient input. We stew in our own juices and crave sensory and mental stimulation. Instead of being faced with a barrage of diverse experiences that we know and are familiar with, we are faced with ‘just this present breath’ or, immediate sensations etc. The mind begins to ‘reel’ and seeks juicy ideas to ruminate over to counter its boredom with the simplicity of just being present - to ‘what is’. Some of the information - that the mind throws up - to avoid being ‘empty’ and present, is unpleasant. So, we change our focus to nice ideas that are less disquieting. Thoughts about universal loving-kindness is something we can use etc. to deal with the negativity. The whole unsatisfactory dynamic comes into view - we see it - if we are lucky? This is when new discoveries have a chance to arise - new insights.

Science tells us that ‘experience’ - or the basis of what we experience - happens first and that *self-consciousness - taking ownership of experience - happens as an after-thought. This is why awakening is possible? You need to factor this scientific discovery into your discussion and, it goes without saying, your findings in contemplative-science i.e. Buddha-Dhamma. This may lead you into a new sphere of discovery - more in-line with the Buddha’s liberating insights. It is worth mentioning that in the Buddha’s teachings ‘sakaya-ditti’ (personality belief) is not found in the consciousness ‘kandha’ (group). The kandhas are an interactive process. Nevertheless, it can provide greater clarity if we tease out the different elements and aspects of the body/mind. The fact that consciousness and the ‘sense of self’ are often conflated in the ‘hard problem of consciousness’ adds to the confusion.

“Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress.” - Bahiya Sutta

In Sam’s ‘big think’ above he says: “consciousness is the quality of what it is to be you”. This is what is making the hard problem of consciousness ‘even harder’. The sense of what it is to be irreducibly you is actually an after-thought - an assumption. Consciousness happens and then a sense of self arises. This is Buddhism 101 - if this was not the case an Arahant would be an impossibility.

There are six different kinds of stimuli (subtle or gross). The essential nature of this stimuli - if it has any - is yet to be determined. There is contact between a stimulus - a so-called object - and one of six sensory-systems. This interaction produces consciousness. Consciousness is a necessary condition in the arising of a ‘sense of self’ but personal stories also play an important role in filling out the details. The stories are the products of memory and perception. With regard to the Arahant there is consciousness but no arising of personality belief - no sense of self.

After an extended period of reaction-free attention the sense of self disappears and does not reappear. Activities take place but there is no sense of an actor. This is a very different frame of reference - incredibly beautiful. Profound relaxation and ease and no expectation. No felt-need to go beyond basic requirements - physical and mental. Replete! A pristine energy - not wasted in useless ideation and pursuits. “Energy = happiness” - Ajahn Brahm

There is nowhere in particular to be and, nowhere in particular to go - anywhere is good enough. Fully present without resistance to ‘what is’ - appropriate responses as required. Welcome home! The doors wide-open and there’s nothing in the way - a whole lotta nothing in the way and its going nowhere. Every experience that has ever happened has ended up in the same place where the next experience is going? What is the shortest duration of an experience? When the next experience has met its required end there is an opening - an opportunity for the process to continue … Seeing deeply into the present moment where every so-called thing makes its appearance there is the empty stillness and silence at the beginning and end of it all. The elegant solution is simple - keep it simple.

“We shall not cease from exploration. And the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.” - T.S. Elliot

*Heterotic M-theory has been used to construct models of brane cosmology in which the observable universe is thought to exist on a brane in a higher dimensional ambient [space].

The ‘others’ are a phenomenal relation in the sense that you/we don’t exist alone in this world. Any perceptual relation to some thing implies a relation to a world of things shared with others, such is our existential facticity.

At the moment my phenomenal world consists of this screen, my hands typing, my self thinking thoughts to write, the Currawong calling out the balcony doors, and my wife and old friend talking downstairs. But my conscious attention keeps coming back to an other called ‘laurence’ with whom I’m conversing.

I quite naturally assume, without reflecting on it, that due to my experiencing this perceptual flux of sensation, feeling and knowing, that ‘laurence’ is also a phenomenal being in this phenomenal world experiencing his/her/its own flux of perceptions as they read these phenomenal words on their phenomenal screen.

It would be quite unnatural to assume the others weren’t a part of this shared world wouldn’t it? So here we are, living and communicating our shared phenomenal experiences albeit at a technologically mediated distance. The ‘we’ in this case is an ongoing flux of meaningful relations, what Husserl termed our intentional intersubjectivity.

Then again who knows, maybe ‘laurence’ is just a server bot AI deployed by suttacentral.net to keep the conversations bubbling. Do you ken me larry?

ha ha ha - no i am not a clever answering machine - though on second thoughts - i guess i could be? wait, i will just check … laurence! laurence! sorry … no answer?

just echo’s in the void

to take the question seriously - there is no subject here

the use of the letter ‘I’ is just a convenient designation

is there a self-existent being here or at the other end of this conversation? no

just nobodies going nowhere

a play of empty phenomena

there may be a contraction, a grasping onto this ephemeral play

that is a conditioned reflex

it has an end

it can cease

then there is no owner of what is arising and passing away

the whole thing stops

when it stops - the phenomenal display - and later kicks into motion, it is clear that it had stopped

this changes the understanding of the process - the phenomena - that arise and cease

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First Noble Truth:

Second Noble Truth

Third Noble Truth

Fourth Noble Truth

:slightly_smiling_face::pray:t4:

With metta

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Consciousness and phenomena ‘appear’ in emptiness and they are also inherently empty, without essence - not-self - cling to naught.

“There are many different descriptions of awakening, but the Buddhist traditions converge in one understanding of what liberates the mind. The Buddha expressed it clearly and unequivocally: “Nothing whatsoever is to be clung to as 'I’ or 'mine.’ Whoever has heard this truth has heard all the Teachings; whoever has realized this truth has realized all the Teachings.” This is the essential unifying experience of freedom - the heart of the One Dharma of liberation. Nothing whatsoever is to be clung to as “I” or “mine.””- Joseph Goldstein