Sotapatti - hugh, what is it good for?

Discussion
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If sotapatti is really a stage towards freedom, then sotapannas would most likely be found outside ordinary society, and might be quite unwilling to break their own practice just for the sake of somebody with a specific need for confirmations about practice. So a break with the world is in my opinion a natural result of getting what you want in this case

Lord Buddha has given us just a few leafs of all the leafs in the forest, and the reason for that was because he understood how easy we could distract ourselves with babbeling

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The problem is rather that exploitative religions have taken advantage of people for millennia, promising them rewards after life, or some other rewards system that somehow never really manifests. Or that they claim that they are super effective, make you rich, make you fly, make you healthy, beautiful, successful. And sure, it worked on ten-thousands of people out there - but you have to understand - these success-stories are very shy and prefer not to be in the public. And you can be one of them! Just stick to the system! etc…

No, sorry, I cannot subscribe to a set of promises of vague grandiosity without the spiritual system being as transparent and tangible as (supra)humanly possible. And so far I see in the three attainments a religious belief system and not much more.

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You can’t get to any other stage without going through sotapatti, -your ducks need to be lined up. ‘The Path is born’ phrase in the sutta above seems to indicate the point where Magga comes into being. This refers to sotapatti magga, and also where the Noble eightfold path (‘the stream, the stream…’) has been entered adequately enough to give rise to sotapatti magga. Removing of fetters start at this point, through to the higher attainments and to finally becoming an arahanth.

Also, who is Hugh? :wink:

with metta

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I don’t want to appear as boasting here; but I think that one should always go farther than just throwing a sutta, as proof of a further personal interpretation. Kind of:
“This sutta says this, and consequently I believe this - so what I believe should be true”.

One should stick to facts in the suttas. As in:
“This sutta says this, and these suttas explain the context, and give the processes”.

So I repeat myself. As far as the path to sotapatti is concerned, see SN 22.122

A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self.
:::::::
For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant… not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry."

And the factors of stream entry are:
Confirmed confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha + the virtues dear to the noble ones.
As well as SN 55.5 & 16 & 28, for instance.

But I did not stop at, throwing the SN 22.122 sutta - but I also explained later on that, understanding the inconstance of not-self, is to be found in losing the self view (sakkāya-diṭṭhi /sam-Ka-ya-diṭṭhi) (viz. the “this is mine” and “I am”) - particularly the “this is mine” + losing uncomprehendingness (as undiscerning) (~doubt ?) (vicikicchā).
Two of the most important lower fetters among the three required to be uprooted, to attain stream-entry.

You have two ways to attain that:
In jhana, or in anapanasati.
Viz. in the 3rd jhana (clearly discerning - sampajāno), or in the 13 th step of anapanasati (contemplating impermanence).

Read SN 54.13 for anapanasati.
I have given a cheatsheet on jhanas. I have even given a link to a Anapanasati/Jhana comparison.

So this is not an “I believe” or “I would think” kind of an approach from a sutta - but hard facts from the corresponding suttas.
And when I say “I suppose”, I usually mean that no other sutta (of which I would not be aware, ) could contradict these suttas’ facts.

One does not have to try to twist the suttas to its own view; but just to explain more clearly what a sutta might actually convey - with the help of other suttas (and a proper lexicography - meaning).

Is there some interest to remain on the nonsense “repeat” merry-go-round ?

Sorry to be that disagreeable - but I don’t agree.

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I don’t agree with your statement either. You have given one sutta and come to your own conclusion. This is the same thing you saying I am doing- which isn’t acceptable to you. I have been studying the dhamma for many decades and practicing as long. I don’t just say things because I feel like it. I say them with responsibility and a lot of knowledge that I don’t (and can’t) necessarily put into every single post I write here. I would have to write an entire visuddhimagga in every post to set out the context - look at sutta- not even the Buddha did that because it simply wasn’t practical. If anyone wants clarification and further detail I’m happy to provide it, but it will take time.

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Not just talking to you @Mat. I also adressed @Charlie with his “I believe”, with no suttas to back up his sayings. But I also adress most of the people on this forum, if for some few.

Now, concerning you personally, in the instance of this thread and of your last posts, I think that @Gabriel 's answer was proper. And that your answer to that, was quite fuzzy (although true). With no backing-up with suttas’s extracts.

Jhana 3 and the 13th step of anapanasati are not arahantship, anyway.
The path starts indeed here, as stream-entry. So be more precise in your first answer.
And give more details in your second. We might all be better of.

Also, you seem to be coming a long way Mat.
I remember you saying that “this is not mine”, (one of the sotapatti requirement), was not an important Buddhist concept.

You know:
“This is not, yours", because this is impermanent. And self is permanent. So it can’t be self; or even belonging to a (your) self.
Anicca as Impermanence and "Not-one’s-owness”.

“Not prominently”, you say !?!
But this is the basis of the path. The assurance of the right course (AN 10.103 /104). The assurance not to let that in , and appropriate it (viz. “what’s not yours”) .
No “bare attention” - No wrong course applies here.

This is where faith comes into play as stream-entry. Faith in this Dhamma.

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Hi folks, just to remind, personally directed spikiness goes entirely against the community guidelines. Thanks.

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To dis-agree is dis-agree-able.

These are not spikes, but mere disagrements.

“Babelling” might be an (insignificant) spike. But certainly not saying to people, that they should avoid “thinking” personally - and instead give more references about texts; with their explanations.
Which is more in accord with the community guidelines.

It would prevent “spikes”; and censorship.

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Why not to go back to the suttas, and more importantly to the ones that need no interpretation but clearly say “Want to be a stream-enterer? Then do x, y, z”

Yes, so SN 22.122 says “See the khandhas as anicca-dukkha…-anatta → and you might become a sotapanna” - that’s pretty straight-forward.

Do we find other recipes?

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I am currently travelling in some remote areas with limited data connection. Also my android phone does not correctly render the sutta central forum and I cannot post using it - thus I am left with having to periodically set up a laptop when I have a connection - thus the delay.

The arising of the Dhamma Eye (stream entry) is mentioned in several places. The basic definition is: ‘Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation’. I believe that from this it is clear that no conditioned state - no matter how subtle - meets the requirement. Only the unconditioned state does. Thanissaro Bhikkhu also has an article titled Into the Stream which provides additional references.

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Yes, take a look at AN 11.2 Cetanna Sutta. It shows how the 8-fold path naturally unfolds. This formula is found in many suttas - there are a few variations but they all follow the same basic idea.

Yes, I agree. I see no disagreement here between us.

Great idea. I spoke with a fellow a year ago or so who was collecting stream entry stories specifically from people following ebt types of practices with the intention of putting them into a book. Don’t know where that project is at.

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Are you sure? AN 11.2 doesn’t mention stream-entry (sotapanna/sotapatti), it results in going to the ‘far shore’ which is a synonym for nibbana.

Very interesting! Please keep us posted

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SN 12.41 contains another formula:

1.don’t kill, steal, rape, lie, drug 2. confidence in Buddha-Dhamma-Sangha + ‘virtue’ 3. understanding of Dependent Origination

While 1 is possible, and 2 in an obscure way as well, 3 puts the bar quite high.

The recipe of SN 22.109 is

understand as they really are: origin, passing away, gratification, danger, escape re. the khandhas

SN 24.1 says:

1.abandon perplexity re. khandhas +1 being anicca-dukkha-changing & 2.abandon perplexity about suffering, its origin, cessation, path

SN 24.2 & SN 24.3 want you to

abandon self-view regarding the khandhas +1

and many many many more variations. So, we have a supermarket full of sotapanna-boxes. Which one are we going to choose? All of them? The most convenient one? The cheapest? Now, you can come up with your own theory - but it’s your own theory.

The suttas don’t say: ‘Just pick any’ or ‘they are equally right’ or ‘different teachers have different ideas’ or ‘your teacher will tell you which one is right for you’, or any other meta-position that will help you - each sutta pretends that it knows best.

So, do you have clarity now? If you do, your clarity is self-produced and doesn’t come from the suttas. What the suttas induce is perplexity. Or, if I have the choice between penetrating Dependent Origination and having faith in the Buddha for attaining Stream-Entry then, öööh, I pick faith.

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The Riddle Tree Sutta might alleviate some concern over which version of stream entry we have to choose:

To read on suttacentral click SN 35.245

One bhikkhu approached another and asked him: “In what way, friend, is a bhikkhu’s vision well purified?”
“When, friend, a bhikkhu understands as they really are the origin and the passing away of the six bases for contact, in this way his vision is well purified.”
Then the first bhikkhu, dissatisfied with the other’s answer, approached another bhikkhu and asked him: “In what way, friend, is a bhikkhu’s vision well purified?”
“When, friend, a bhikkhu understands as they really are the origin and the passing away of the five aggregates subject to clinging, in this way his vision is well purified.”
Again, the first bhikkhu, dissatisfied with the other’s answer, approached still another bhikkhu and asked him: “In what way, friend, is a bhikkhu’s vision well purified?”
“When, friend, a bhikkhu understands as they really are the origin and the passing away of the four great elements, in this way his vision is well purified.”
Again, the first bhikkhu, dissatisfied with the other’s answer, approached still another bhikkhu and asked him: “In what way, friend, is a bhikkhu’s vision well purified?”
“When, friend, a bhikkhu understands as it really is: ‘Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation,’ in this way his vision is well purified.”
Then the first bhikkhu, dissatisfied with the other’s answer, approached the Blessed One, reported everything that had happened, and asked: “In what way, venerable sir, is a bhikkhu’s vision well purified?”
“Bhikkhu, suppose there was a man who had never before seen a Kiṃ tree. He might approach a man who had seen a Kiṃ tree and ask him: ‘Sir, what is a Kiṃ tree like?’ The other might answer: ‘Good man, a Kiṃ tree is blackish, like a charred stump.’ On that occasion a kiṃsuka tree might have been exactly as that man had seen it.
“Then that man, dissatisfied with the other’s answer, might approach another man who had seen a kiṃsuka tree and ask him: ‘Sir, what is a kiṃsuka tree like?’ The other might answer: ‘Good man, a kiṃsuka tree is reddish, like a piece of meat.’ On that occasion a kiṃsuka tree might have been exactly as that man had seen it.
“Then that man, dissatisfied with the other’s answer, might approach still another man who had seen a kiṃsuka tree and ask him: ’Sir, what is a kiṃsuka tree like?’ The other might answer: ‘Good man, a kiṃsuka tree has strips of bark hanging down and burst pods, like an acacia tree.’ On that occasion a kiṃsuka tree might have been exactly as that man had seen it.
“Then that man, dissatisfied with the other’s answer, might approach still another man who had seen a kiṃsuka tree and ask him: ‘Sir, what is a kiṃsuka tree like?’ The other might answer: ‘Good man, a kiṃsuka tree has plenty of leaves and foliage and gives abundant shade, like a banyan tree.’ On that occasion a kiṃsuka tree might have been exactly as that man had seen it.
“So too, bhikkhu, those superior men answered as they were disposed in just the way their own vision had been well purified. “Suppose, bhikkhu, a king had a frontier city with strong ramparts, walls, and arches, and with six gates. The gatekeeper posted there would be wise, competent, and intelligent; one who keeps out strangers and admits acquaintances. A swift pair of messengers would come from the east and ask the gatekeeper: ‘Where, good man, is the lord of this city?’ He would reply: ‘He is sitting in the central square.’ Then the swift pair of messengers would deliver a message of reality to the lord of the city and leave by the route by which they had arrived. Similarly, messengers would come from the west, from the north, from the south, deliver their message, and leave by the route by which they had arrived.
“I have made up this simile, bhikkhu, in order to convey a meaning. This is the meaning here: ‘The city’: this is a designation for this body consisting of the four great elements, originating from mother and father, built up out of boiled rice and gruel, subject to impermanence, to being worn and rubbed away, to breaking apart and dispersal. ‘The six gates’: this is a designation for the six internal sense bases. ‘The gatekeeper’: this is a designation for mindfulness. ‘The swift pair of messengers’: this is a designation for serenity and insight. ‘The lord of the city’: this is designation for consciousness. ‘The central square’: this is a designation for the four great elements—the earth element, the water element, the heat element, the air element. ‘A message of reality’: this is a designation for Nibbāna. ‘The route by which they had arrived’: this is a designation for the Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view … right concentration.”

:anjal:

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Lovely, thank you :slight_smile:

Reminds me of the 6 blind men and the elephant

:anjal: :dharmawheel:

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Thanks, that’s a good sutta :slight_smile: and it would help one’s personal approach to the practice. It also reminds us of MN 32. But I don’t think it quite tackles the sutta pitaka’s dilemma of how to deal with alternatives, different definitions of the same concept (e.g. sammaditthi) etc. Because it’s too much at risk.

This sutta is hidden in the recesses of the SN. For its content to represent the suttas in general is should be as ubiquitous as the common pericopes are, applied to different concepts (not just suvisuddha), or have its exclusive Digha or several Majjhima suttas - this is how the suttas drive a message home.

I hope you see that I don’t argue the position of SN 35.235 - it is of course sensible, just if the Buddha/compilers really wanted to alleviate our concerns they would have needed to make it much much clearer - which I guess is why Abhidhammas & commentaries became necessary.

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You say:

Look at the descriptions from Ajahn Boowa for example or Thanissaro’s ‘awareness outside of time and space’ as a description of stream entry.

Which corresponds to the 6 th jhana.

I say

Second/third jhanas (starting with cetaso ekodibhava [transcendence of citta] and ending with sampajano [clearly discerning]) —or— the 12th/13th steps of anapanasati [freeing the mind (vimocayam cittam) and contempling impermanence (aniccanupassi)], would be quite sufficient to do away with sakkāya-diṭṭhi and vicikicchā (undiscerning).

This comes from the suttas. SN 16.9 (jhanas) and SN 54.13 (anapanasati).
So what the point to go on with such a cryptic answer like this:

Your answer

I don’t see how that would be possible.
Though I do believe that any level of jhana may be sufficient for stream entry to occur.

?!?!

There must still be the direct experience of cessation.

But that is what the 13th step of anapanasati, and third jhana are all about. Viz. discerning cessation, which cannot be self. Which cannot be sakkāyadiṭṭhi.

Jhana is conditioned. As it is fabricated, it cannot be the basis for the insight that arises from the unconditioned. It would be like saying going really slow on a merry-go-round is the equivalent of not being on it.

This is not only, highly nonsensical to me; but it also goes totally against what you say in the first place:

“Look at the descriptions from Ajahn Boowa for example or Thanissaro’s ‘awareness outside of time and space’”.

Which is just the 6th jhana.

All this is so confusing.

And then - cherry on the cake - your last answer is just about what 3rd jhana and the 13th step of anapanasati deal with.

We’ve been certainly slowly on that nonsense merry-go-round.
Thanks for the ride, but I’ll pass.

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Well for me, the last suttas of SN 35 are a nest of major similes, as this “simile of the city”; and should hardly be considered as a “recess”.

This SN 35.245 (which has a perfect parallel in SA 1175,) is THE major sutta, explaining clearly what mindfulness is; when it comes to keeping the extetnal at bay, and restraining the indriyani (viz. not just the reminding process).
THE major sutta.

This dusting job of yours, might be a bit alacritous in its intention.

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It boils down to believing in “rites & rituals”, and one can pick what ever organized happiness factory one want’s, and in these days maybe a couple of games from the global ongoing football show to illustrate my point …

And another point is that nobody really knows, and it’s left completely to this stream of consciousness to find it’s way home alone.

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I am saying that these are descriptions of the unconditioned - not descriptions of jhana. This seems the source of confusion. I am not here to convince you I am right but I will try to describe my reasoning. It is not confused. It could be wrong, but it is not confused.

You mentioned SN 16.9 and SN 54.13 - both of these describe the path, not the result or goal of the path (the deathless or whatever we want to call it). The path is fabricated:

MN 44:
“Now, again, lady, what is the noble eightfold path?”

“This is the noble eightfold path, friend Visākha: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.”

“Is the noble eightfold path fabricated or unfabricated?”

“The noble eightfold path is fabricated.”

Further down in MN 44 we find:
“When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, lady, how many contacts make contact?”

“When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visākha, three contacts make contact: contact with emptiness, contact with the signless, & contact with the undirected.”

That is the unconditioned. What is that experience like? Thanisarro Bhikkhu describes it as an awareness outside of time and space.

From page 31 of Arahattamagga:
The citta lets go of the body, feeling, memory, thought and consciousness and enters a pure stillness of its very own, with absolutely no connection to the khandhas. In that moment, the five khandhas do not function in any way at all in relation to the citta…
No matter how deep or continuous, samãdhi is not an end in
itself. Samãdhi does not bring about an end to all suffering. But samãdhi does constitute an ideal platform from which to launch an all out assault on the kilesas that cause all suffering.

Note that the mind inclines to the deathless upon coming out of concentration - not during it. This is what I meant when I said ‘any level of jhana may be sufficient for stream entry to occur’.

As an analogy: If you walk down a hillside that gets ever steeper at some point you will slip and fall. The ever steeper hillside here stands for deepening of jhana. You don’t know exactly when you will fall - this depends on many factors. But at some point it will happen. As long as you are upright and moving toward the steeper slope - this refers to being in a conditioned or fabricated state - specifically the fabrication of jhana. The khandas are like the ground beneath your feet. When you slip and fall, this is the mind inclining toward the deathless and down you go and eventually off the cliff. Off the cliff: That is the unconditioned. Jhana sets you up for this - makes it more likely to occur - but it isn’t it.

Yes, that is the one I mean. Right Concentration is the practice regardless of where we are at. At stream entry we have basically reached the far shore - maybe something like standing in the surf and still needing to wade ashore? But the song remains the same.

I shall.

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