Stratification of the Suttas

Q & A
22

Just one more thing, I was attempting to do some research to help explain the Yamaka Sutta raised in this thread:

Before I realised that the OP was perhaps pulling our collective leg a little and was not in fact seeking info on that rather technical sutta but wanting to have a broader conversation about personal practice and comparative religion, but whatever, I wanted to find the actually expanded version of

“So you should truly see …
“Tasmātiha …pe…
Seeing this …
evaṁ passaṁ …pe…
They understand: ‘… there is no return to any state of existence.’
nāparaṁ itthattāyāti pajānāti.

SN22.85

and so I pasted nāparaṃ itthattāyāti pajānātīti into Digital Pāli Reader and got:

DN: 0
MN: 0
SN: 68
AN: 0

So again, my pali is non existent and I am sure there is the phrase “no more coming into any state of being” in the other nikayas, so after scratching my head quite a bit I finally figured out there’s a “double quote” (I don’t know the technical term) of titi at the end of the string, I had copied it from Sn22.82 by mistake, but still, this particular double quote occurs exclusively in SN!

This happens to me a LOT when I use Digital Pāli Reader and now also https://digitalpalidictionary.github.io/ (and as a side note the striking relationship between SN and the Vibangha is also very evident in DPD when looking at word frequencies, as is the similarity with what the DPD calls Khuddaka Nikāya 3 consisting of Mahāniddesapāḷi, Cūḷaniddesapāḷi, Paṭisambhidāmaggapāḷi, Nettippakaraṇapāḷi, Milindapañhapāḷi, Peṭakopadesapāḷi.)

Anyway, returning to “there is no return” if we search nāparaṃ itthattāyāti pajānā

we end up with results for

nāparaṃ itthattāyāti pajānāti 13 times, 8 times in DN, 1 time in MN, 3 times in SN, 1 time in AN
nāparaṃ itthattāyāti pajānātīti 67 times ALL in SN
nāparaṃ itthattāyāti pajānātīti.pañcamaṃ 1 time (in SN)
nāparaṃ itthattāyāti pajānāmāti 1 time in SN and
nāparaṃ itthattāyāti pajānāmīti 19 times, 1 time in MN, 5 times in SN, 13 times in AN (all in AN9 and AN10)

So it LOOKS like the original phrase is in DN, and is quoted (hence the titi) in SN 68 times. (plus a variant in AN9 and 10)

this seems like another little bit of evidence that DN precedes SN in this case.

Anyone who has better knowledge of the pali may have a much simpler explanation than I have, and I would welcome it while I wait for my online pali class to begin :slight_smile:

Metta.

well, might as well add a few more bits and pieces here;

in the DN context we have this “no more return” occuring in the context of 4 jhanas (no immaterial attainments) and projecting the mind towards knowledge and vision, thus;

When their mind has become immersed in samādhi like this—purified, bright, flawless, rid of corruptions, pliable, workable, steady, and imperturbable—they extend it and project it toward knowledge and vision.
So evaṁ samāhite citte parisuddhe pariyodāte anaṅgaṇe vigatūpakkilese mudubhūte kammaniye ṭhite āneñjappatte ñāṇadassanāya cittaṁ abhinīharati abhininnāmeti …pe…
This pertains to their knowledge. …
idampissa hoti vijjāya …pe…
They understand: ‘There is no return to any state of existence.’
nāparaṁ itthattāyāti pajānāti,
This pertains to their knowledge.
idampissa hoti vijjāya.
This is that knowledge.
Ayaṁ kho sā, ambaṭṭha, vijjā.

DN3

and

“It’s when a Realized One arises in the world, perfected, a fully awakened Buddha …
“idha, brāhmaṇa, tathāgato loke uppajjati arahaṁ sammāsambuddho …pe…
That’s how a mendicant is accomplished in ethics.
Evaṁ kho, brāhmaṇa, bhikkhu sīlasampanno hoti.
This, brahmin, is that ethical conduct. …
Idaṁ kho taṁ, brāhmaṇa, sīlaṁ …pe…
They enter and remain in the first absorption …
paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati …
second absorption …
dutiyaṁ jhānaṁ …
third absorption …
tatiyaṁ jhānaṁ …
fourth absorption …
catutthaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati …pe…
They extend and project the mind toward knowledge and vision …
ñāṇadassanāya cittaṁ abhinīharati, abhininnāmeti …pe…
This pertains to their wisdom. …
Idampissa hoti paññāya …pe…
They understand: ‘… there is no return to any state of existence.’
nāparaṁ itthattāyāti pajānāti.
This pertains to their wisdom.
Idampissa hoti paññāya
This, brahmin, is that wisdom.”
ayaṁ kho sā, brāhmaṇa, paññā”ti.

DN4

It’s when a Realized One arises in the world, perfected, a fully awakened Buddha …
“Idha, brāhmaṇa, tathāgato loke uppajjati arahaṁ sammāsambuddho …pe…
That’s how a mendicant is accomplished in ethics. …
Evaṁ kho, brāhmaṇa, bhikkhu sīlasampanno hoti …pe…
They enter and remain in the first absorption …
paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.
This sacrifice has fewer requirements and undertakings than the former, yet is more fruitful and beneficial. …
Ayaṁ kho, brāhmaṇa, yañño purimehi yaññehi appaṭṭhataro ca appasamārambhataro ca mahapphalataro ca mahānisaṁsataro ca …pe…

They enter and remain in the second absorption …
Dutiyaṁ jhānaṁ …
third absorption …
tatiyaṁ jhānaṁ …
fourth absorption.
catutthaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.
This sacrifice has fewer requirements and undertakings than the former, yet is more fruitful and beneficial. …
Ayampi kho, brāhmaṇa, yañño purimehi yaññehi appaṭṭhataro ca appasamārambhataro ca mahapphalataro ca mahānisaṁsataro cāti. …pe…

They extend and project the mind toward knowledge and vision …
Ñāṇadassanāya cittaṁ abhinīharati abhininnāmeti …
This sacrifice has fewer requirements and undertakings than the former, yet is more fruitful and beneficial.
ayampi kho, brāhmaṇa, yañño purimehi yaññehi appaṭṭhataro ca appasamārambhataro ca mahapphalataro ca mahānisaṁsataro ca …pe…

They understand: ‘… there is no return to any state of existence.’
nāparaṁ itthattāyāti pajānāti.
This sacrifice has fewer requirements and undertakings than the former, yet is more fruitful and beneficial.
Ayampi kho, brāhmaṇa, yañño purimehi yaññehi appaṭṭhataro ca appasamārambhataro ca mahapphalataro ca mahānisaṁsataro ca.
And, brahmin, there is no other accomplishment of sacrifice which is better and finer than this.”
Imāya ca, brāhmaṇa, yaññasampadāya aññā yaññasampadā uttaritarā vā paṇītatarā vā natthī”ti.

DN5

etc,

whereas, continuing my theme of kamma/jhana vs aggregates/not-self in DN vs SN, in SN by far the bulk of “there is no return” is places at the end of an enumeration of the aggregates formula SN22 giving 31 of the 77 occurrences in that Nikaya, but even outside of SN22 we have;

At Sāvatthī.
Sāvatthinidānaṁ.

Seated to one side, Venerable Rādha said to the Buddha:
Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho āyasmā rādho bhagavantaṁ etadavoca:

“Sir, they speak of this thing called ‘Māra-like nature’.
“‘māradhammo, māradhammo’ti, bhante, vuccati.
What is a Māra-like nature?”
Katamo nu kho, bhante, māradhammo”ti?

“Rādha, form has a Māra-like nature. Feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness have a Māra-like nature.
“Rūpaṁ kho, rādha, māradhammo, vedanā māradhammo, saññā māradhammo, saṅkhārā māradhammo, viññāṇaṁ māradhammo.

Seeing this …
Evaṁ passaṁ …pe…
They understand: ‘… there is no return to any state of existence.’”
nāparaṁ itthattāyāti pajānātī”ti.

SN23.12

At Sāvatthī.
Sāvatthinidānaṁ.

Seated to one side, Venerable Rādha said to the Buddha:
Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho āyasmā rādho bhagavantaṁ etadavoca:

“Sir, they speak of this thing called ‘impermanence’.
“‘aniccaṁ, aniccan’ti, bhante, vuccati.
What is impermanence?”
Katamaṁ nu kho, bhante, aniccan”ti?

“Rādha, form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness are impermanent.
“Rūpaṁ kho, rādha, aniccaṁ, vedanā aniccā, saññā aniccā, saṅkhārā aniccā, viññāṇaṁ aniccaṁ.

Seeing this …
Evaṁ passaṁ …pe…
They understand: ‘… there is no return to any state of existence.’”
nāparaṁ itthattāyāti pajānātī”ti.

SN23.13

With all of SN23 being repetitions like the above.

SN24 is the same with just one sutta given and the rest to be done “like in the last chapter”

SN35 switches it up and uses the 6 elements formulae instead of the 5 aggregates, again simply appending the “there is no return” quotation within a quotation at the end.

23

If you have your findings all in a spreadsheet, I would love to see it. Also, are you searching to see what concepts appear together in the same suttas? I have started, but have not gotten far in the latter.

24

I will be working on putting something together that summarises my argument and evidence in the coming couple of months.

The main word frequency ones are as above, but I may uncover more going forward, I will post it all as an new thread in the essay topic when it’s ready.

Metta

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25

One other one that’s not in the above list is saḷāyatan which in DPR gives:

DN: 6 (ALL in DN14)
MN: 26 (in MN9 MN11 nine times in MN38 then MN115 MN121 MN137 MN142 MN149 MN152)
SN: 80 times (all bar 9 occurrences in SN12)
AN: 4 times (all bar one occurrence in AN3.62 the other occurrence being in AN10.92)

it occurs once in the VInaya, 4 times in the Udana, and not at all in any of the other early books.

using the Digital Pali Dictionary gives:

Vinaya Pārājika 0
Vinaya Pācittiya 0
Vinaya Mahāvagga 1
Vinaya Cūḷavagga 0
Vinaya Parivāra 0
Sutta Dīgha Nikāya 7
Sutta Majjhima Nikāya 11
Sutta Saṃyutta Nikāya 66
Sutta Aṅguttara Nikāya 3
Sutta Khuddaka Nikāya 1 2
Sutta Khuddaka Nikāya 2 0
Sutta Khuddaka Nikāya 3 36
Abhidhamma Dhammasaṅgaṇī 1
Abhidhamma Vibhaṅga 23
Abhidhamma Dhātukathā 6
Abhidhamma Puggalapaññatti 0
Abhidhamma Kathāvatthu 7
Abhidhamma Yamaka 0
Abhidhamma Paṭṭhāna 0

this pattern, of SN having a lot of mentions and then Sutta Khuddaka Nikāya 3 having a lot, and Abhidhamma Vibhaṅga having a lot is quite characteristic.

So to summerise, saḷāyatan appears to cluster in later suttas (numerically speaking) in MN and in SN12 and to basically be absent from DN, the VInaya and the early KN books, except where it occasionally occurs in the context of the idappaccayatāpaṭiccasamuppādo

All this seems to me to allow one to make an argument that several of the more “analytic” and “philosophical” doctrines (the aggregates, the sense bases) have their center of gravity in the final third of MN and in SN, and that SN shows an affinity with the later books of KN and with the abbhidhamma Vibhanga.

This as least makes it not unthinkable that SN reflects a period of Buddhism that moved from a more… passionate framing of kamma and jhana to a dryer and more analytic presentation centering around aggregates and not-self.

Anyway, my last day at work for the year is this Thursday coming, and after than I intend to try and write up my arguments more fully, so until then…

Metta!

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26

Oh wait, all the occurrences in SN bar 1 are in SN12 (all the other occurrences are in end bits like Saḷāyatanavagge catutthapaṇṇāsako samatto

So the only occurrence of the term outside SN12 occurs at SN35.117

(I should just say, I am aware that the term and the idea are two different things, and there are plenty of suttas with the eye, the ear, etc etc…)

SN35.117 is interesting in that it starts with the Buddha talking about pañca kāmaguṇā and then the Buddha goes away to meditate and the monks ask Ananda to explain what was said and Ananda says saḷāyatana the monks then go back to the Buddha and the Buddha says Ananda explained correctly.

this is something we see a lot in the suttas. I will leave it to the astute to ponder why.

Metta

27

So what? What is your conclusion?

28

So my conclusion is that the term is rare apart from the last part of MN and SN12.

29

Maybe to bring out a contrast it’s helpful to look at a related example,

pañca kāmaguṇ:

DN: 6
MN: 15
SN: 15
AN: 5

saḷāyatan:

DN: 6
MN: 26
SN: 80
AN: 4

(pañcakāmaguṇ provides 1 more occurance in each of DN, MN and SN)

…I have been trying to figure out a proxy to help capture the formulae of the form the eye and sights, the ear and sounds etc… because they exhibit so much diversity in terms of content it’s not possible simply to put wildcards in, but anyway, while tinkering I examined:

cakkhuviññāṇa

and got

DN: 3 (all in DN22 and DN33)
MN: 31
SN: 86
AN: 0

(in MN, 6 occurrences are in MN1-99 vs 25 occurrences in MN100-152, this again is a fairly charecteristic pattern in the searches i am doing, with the “SN style” terms clustering in the latter third of MN compared to the first two thirds.)

(further, cakkhuviññāṇa in the first 2 thirds of MN occurs first in MN9, a teaching of Sariputta, next in MN10 a sutta widely regarded to emanate from SN, next in MN18, in the part of the sutta taught by Mahākaccāna rather than the part spoken by the Buddha, and so we don’t have this technical term put directly into the mouth of the buddha (granting the SN origin of MN10) until MN38, which is a composite of several teachings strung together in relation to Sati’s heresy)

(and just a little bit more on MN38, the sutta is quite clearly a composite, providing many separate teachings as examples of refutations for Sati’s heresy, one of which involves parittacetaso the “heart restricted” as in “When they see a sight with their eyes, if it’s pleasant they desire it, but if it’s unpleasant they dislike it. They live with mindfulness of the body unestablished and their heart restricted.”

this word occurs only in MN38 and SN35, and it’s first occurrence in SN35 (at SN35.132 it is taught not by the Buddha, but by Mahākaccāna ! it next occurs at SN35.243 taught by Mahāmoggallāna, and in the final 2 occurrences (at SN35.244 and SN35.247) it is unattributed.

contrast this with for example another phrase that occurs in MN38 tathāgato loke uppajjati this is attested in all 4 nikayas, in multiple suttas in multiple vaggas in each case.

other parts of the restricted heart pericope exhibit strange behaviours, cetovimuttiṃ paññāvimuttiṃ yathābhūtaṃ occurs in one other place in MN, at MN78, but it is put in the mouth of the builder Pañcakaṅga where he says;

It’s when a mendicant behaves ethically, but they don’t identify with their ethical behavior. Idha, thapati, bhikkhu sīlavā hoti no ca sīlamayo, And they truly understand the freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom where these skillful behaviors cease without anything left over. tañca cetovimuttiṁ paññāvimuttiṁ yathābhūtaṁ pajānāti; yatthassa te kusalā sīlā aparisesā nirujjhanti.

it then gets repeated in AN5 and AN10, as an ethics teaching, but the whole pericope seems to eminate on its own from SN35.132, in the mouth of Mahākaccāna, it is not found in all 4 NIkayas)

addendum 6/11/22:
another example has come up, I have been trying to get a handle on the “undeclared points” and thought to search for moghamaññan "other ideas are silly, with moghama on DPR got

DN: 13
MN: 33
SN: 0
AN: 21

this is not a case of me looking through word lists for anything that jumps out about SN, this is me taking a particular topic I am interested in, in this case the undeclared points, and trying to use DPR to find all the occurances of a particular doctrinal topic, and once again finding that SN sticks out as different from the other 3 principle Nikayas. It just keeps happening.

30

another example; in trying to get a handle on the “undeclared points” i.e at MN72 I thought to search for moghamaññan, “other opinions are silly” on DPR so I used moghama and got:

DN: 13
MN: 33
SN: 0
AN: 21

once again, I am not laboriously looking through word lists hunting for instances where the term is lacking in SN, rather I am looking into a topic that interests me, the undeclared points, and finding, again, that SN sticks out like a sore thumb as different in tenor from the other 3 principle NIkayas with regards to some particular topic. It just keeps happening.

I should note that one counter-example has come up for me so far, again in relation to this undeclared points research; adhiccasamuppannaṃ arisen by chance or arisen without cause, which is strikingly absent from MN:

DN: 11
MN: 0
SN: 25
AN: 1

This is the only time I can think of where a topic has been present in both DN and SN but lacking in MN, fascinating.

31

Since moghamaññan ti appears sometimes as moghaṃ aññan ti it would be better to search for just mogha-. It’s not an especially common word and so shouldn’t take you inordinately long to investigate all the occurrences of it.

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32

Thanks @Dhammanando , I am waiting with baited breath to do Bhante @sujato 's pali course so i can figure these things out for myself and annoy him all the more with my mahayanish? ramblings :slight_smile:

Although a quick search of that root shows no occurrences of the longer term either as a compound or as discrete words in SN.

a similar result is obtainable just using idameva saccaṃ

DN: 13
MN : 33
SN: 0
AN: 21
KN: 33

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33

Right, the SN has only mogha, amogha and moghapurisa.

34

Are you looking for the undeclared points, or are you looking for the phrase “other ideas are silly”? These may be two different things.

If I search for tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā I get 27 results in SN.

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35

yes, I am looking for the undeclared points more generally, and I realize that they occur without the “other ideas are silly”, including in SN, but what I was remarking on was the absence of that particular phrase from SN.

My interest really is slightly broader than the undeclared points, I am also interested in the “tetralemma” in the early texts more generally, which comes up sometimes even outside the tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā context as at SN12.17 and SN12.25 for example.

tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā is a great search string though, thanks for the suggestion!

Metta.

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36

Ayya @sabbamitta -

does a Realized One exist after death?

might make a good EBT-Site query? :slight_smile:

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37

:smile:

We have “does a realized one exist”.

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38

so a couple more notes;

Dukkhameva uppajjamānaṁ uppajjati

VN: 0
DN: 0
MN: 0
SN: 2
AN: 0
KN: 0
AB: 1

the 2 suttas that make this statement are SN12.15 and SN22.86 their parallels at SA106 and SA301 appear (to my poorly trained eye), to omit any equivalent of this statement.

next

tathāgate anupalabbhiyamāne

VN: 0
DN: 0
MN: 0
SN: 3
AN: 0
AB: 0

the three suttas to make this statement are SN22.85 SN22.86 and SN44.2 the last two have the same parallel in SA106 mentioned above, which again omits any equivalent to the statement that I can find, and refers directly to SN22.85 's parallel SA108 (sc gives 104?) which again appears to omit any statement at the end of the aggregates interrogation to the effect that the Tathagata cannot be found as a genuine fact.

To summarize, statements along the lines of ALL that arises is suffering arising or ALL phenomena are characterized by not-self are more or less completely absent from any Nikaya except SN, are often lacking from the Agama parallels, and seem in manifest tension with the anti-essentialism of the tetralemma and conditionality, where rather than universally or existentially predicating over phenomena, any given phenomena is defined by its appearance, disappearance, and the relation to another phenomena that governs it’s disappearance.

it kind of reminds me of gentzen, proposition, introduction, elimination, proof…

basically saying things like “there is no X” or “there is X” is what the Buddha is saying that phenomenal appearances can never give you justification for, all you can do is say “phenomena X appears when” “phenomena X disappears when” the phenomena can give you evidence of other phenomena and the inter-relatedness of phenomena, but they don’t justify existential claims about putative entities “behind” phenomena, and this includes imputing the absence of a given entity behind phenomena, you can’t say anything at all, coherently about what is, is not, both, neither, etc behind or apart from phenomena, hence for the vast majority of the suttas universal predicates of the form “all phenomena are X” (where X is a non-phenomenal entity) are suspect.

for example ALL things can’t be suffering, otherwise what would suffering arise in dependence on?

If suffering appears in dependence of suffering we have an infinite regress.

But of course, suffering also can’t be real and different from other phenomena because how could a real “pre-existing” entity appear in dependence on the configurations of illusory, ephemeral phenomena?

This is ultimately why the Anatta teaching has to be rehabilitated and understood not as a metaphysical claim about some putative “Ultimate Reality” behind ALL phenomena but as a methodological claim about phenomena themselves, that is are any of them so far experienced permanent? no. is any combination of them so far experienced permanent? no. are each of them experienced so far ephemeral? yes. are any combinations of them experienced so far ephemeral? yes. do we observe some ephemeral phenomena as ground for other ephemeral phenomena, that is, do we observe necessary relations between phenomena, like death necessarily meaning that there was a being who was born that is the subject of that death? yes.

Most of the early suttas seem scrupulously careful to avoid making universal claims that impute a “metaphysics” that goes beyond what is warranted by phenomena, the “middle way” the Buddha seems to have found is between wildly differing metaphysical ontologies on the one hand (monism, pluralism, materialism, fictionalism etc) and complete skepticism with regards to the possibility of knowledge on the other hand. (the ajnana etc).

This seems to me to be one of the greatest and most fruitful philosophical contributions in world history, and I think it is one that is needlessly obscured and confused by making a metaphysics out of self denial.

Metta.

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39

Glad to see you’re still exploring the suttas, Jospeh! I had a couple minutes to check the Chinese for one of your searches:

There does appear to be a parallel expression in SA 301 to the one in SN 12.15:

苦生而生，苦滅而滅

This basically means: “The suffering arising arises, and the suffering ceasing ceases.” In the Pali, the verb “to arise” is modified by its present participle “arising,” yielding the awkwardly redundant: “That suffering arising arises.” The Chinese looks like an attempt at a literal rendering of the same thing using Chinese grammar.

I don’t see dukkhameva uppajjamānaṁ uppajjati in SN 22.86, nor is there anything parallel to it in SA 106.

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40

I like this sutra (SN12.15 = SA 301) very much. The following are the two texts side by side comparison (pp. 193-5):
Pages 192-5 from The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism Choong Mun-keat 2000.pdf (274.5 KB)

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41

thanks so much for your clarification @cdpatton ! I really appreciate it, your right, I don’t know how I got SN22.86 (too many tabs open probably), it is SN22.90, which is just a direct quote of SN12.15, so actually there is only 1 occurrence of Dukkhameva uppajjamānaṁ uppajjati in the whole of the EBT’s ( the abhidhamma occurrence is clearly quoting the original in SN, mentioning kaccana by name)

thanks again.

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