SuttaCentral

Thag 1.104 redundant multiple


#1

There are two versions of this sutta given, one Sujato+Walton 2014; one Sujato 2019. The only difference in the translation is the conversion of two lower case letters to capital letters. Plus the addition of line by line Pāli, which seems to make 2014 entirely redundant.


#2

They are two editions of one and the same translation by Sujato & Walton: first edition 2014, second edition 2019.

Removing the first edition from SC is on SC’s to-do list.

See SuttaCentral and Wikipedia


#3

In voice.suttacentral.net, I have dropped the sujato-walton suttas as non-supported. They are not segmented. The sujato 2019 suttas are segmented and therefore fully supported for search. Voice.suttacentral.net treats the sujato-walton suttas as non-supported legacy translations. The notion of support is important because it provides a guarantee of translation consistency across a wide set of suttas. For Bhante Sujato that is 3999 supported suttas.


#4

If Walton was one of the translators in both editions, maybe include her name in the second one then? Seems only Sujato’s name on the new one.

Also, in the new one, the Pāli line by line is incorrect. I suppose this could be a common problem in verse. But it results in showing English which is actually translating a different line than it claims, in this case last two lines are reversed it seems.

Perhaps the solution would be to not separate those two lines, since that gives the wrong result. Just have two lines of Pāli and twp lines of English, which would make it correspond perfectly.


#5

I’m not an SC dev, just an ordinary forum user like you (but I like to help) :wink:

It’s on SC’s to-do list. It’s correctly indicated in the publication details tab though.


#6

Since segments convey semantics, I would also agree that the current segmentation could be confusing. Perhaps you could bring this to Bhante Sujato’s attention via @-delete-this-space-Sujato?


#7

This happens constantly in verse, and occasionally in prose. There is no 100% way to map text and translation, so we simply have to accept that the segment matching is approximate. Even if we increased the scope of the segments to a verse, which would result in a major loss of granularity, it would not solve the problem, as, for example, it is not unheard of for Pali to provide the necessary verb at the end of a pair of verses, while in English it must be at the start.


#8

Fair enough. Also I guess most people who are actually looking at the Pāli will be able to see these things anyway.

If we don’t destroy the planet first, maybe one day the connections will be colourised and/or represented in 3D. The functionality we have already is amazing.


#9

Ahh, yes, exactly. In the end, the only criterion that matters is whether it’s useful for people.


#10

I came up with my own translation of this little verse, in case anyone is interested!

Light indeed, is my body,
Touched by an abundance of rapture and happiness.
Like cotton fluff carried by the breeze,
As if my body’s floating.

“Lahuko vata me kāyo,
Phuṭṭho ca pītisukhena vipulena;
Tūlamiva eritaṃ mālutena,
Pilavatīva me kāyo”ti.

Not sure if tūla refers to only a specific part or product of the plant, but my sense was that it was about the fluffy part of cotton, natural while growing and before processing, which can blow in the wind like dandelions. If this line of thinking is correct, then I feel the addition of the word ‘fluff’ helps convey that it is the natural fibres we are talking about, not actual cloth.

And I noticed māluta is given also as breeze in the dictionary, which seemed to fit that image of light blowing weightless seeds, an image so common to me as a kid.

This is different for me from the image of a strong gust of wind carrying off sheets of cotton cloth from a laudry line or whatever, which “cotton in the wind” somewhat implies to me. SUch cotton is far heavier and requires a stronger force to move it - ‘wind’ is stronger than ‘breeze’. Thus I was worried whether “like cotton in the wind” fully conveys the lightness of the image being given here.

I also translated ‘touched’ since I think it has particular importance but that’s another very long conversation, though I don’t object really to ‘full of’.

Not saying anything is wrong. Just giving my option. Though anyone please correct me if I made an error!


#11

I actually saw a dandelion puff in my mind when I read Bhante’s translation. Although not biologically correct, it certainly matches the sentiment. What we read depends a lot on personal experience. I have experienced dandelions but not cotton fluff. Bhante’s style is very spare, and that permits these “experiential fill-ins” that make the reading quite personal. Bhante translates like Picasso drew lines. Spare yet full.


#12

To be clear, I think Ajahn Sujato’s translation is great! I made my own translatoin because I wanted to keep ‘touching’ in the English, for a specific research project I’m doing. So rather than just add in that word, I took a shot at the whole verse. So just sharing it here in case it’s interesting or useful for anyone else (or also in case there’s an error I made which I didn’t notice!)

I really like this verse. This early material, speaking so directly and in plain and emotional language, about direct meditative experience. Rather than overly philosophical or overly exaggerated experiences in some later material, especially Mahayana sutras.