"In addition, monks, in the future there will be monks who will not be developed bodily in virtuous behavior, in the mind nor in wisdom. While engaged in Dhamma chats, in questions and answers, they will slide into the black dhamma, but they will not recognize it. Thus, monks, through the corruption of the Dhamma comes the corruption of the Discipline and, from the corruption of the Discipline, comes the corruption of the Dhamma. This is the third future danger that has not yet arisen and will arise in the future. You must acknowledge it and make an effort to abandon it.
"In addition, monks, in the future there will be monks who will not be developed bodily in virtuous behavior, in the mind nor in wisdom. As long as those Tathagata utterances are said to be profound, deep in meaning, transcending the world, connected with emptiness, they will not listen to them, they will not listen to them nor apply their minds to understand them; They will not think that those teachings should be studied and learned. But while they recite those speeches that are mere poetry composed by poets, beautiful in words and phrases, created by strangers and pronounced by their disciples, then they will listen to them, listen to them and apply their minds to understand them; They will think that those teachings should be studied and learned. Thus, monks, through the corruption of the Dhamma comes the corruption of the Discipline and, from the corruption of the Discipline, comes the corruption of the Dhamma. This is the fourth future danger that has not yet arisen and will arise in the future. You must acknowledge it and make an effort to abandon it.
5. Book of the Fives
79. The Discourse on Future Dangers
"Whereas some brahmans and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, are addicted to debates such as these — ‘You understand this doctrine and discipline? I’m the one who understands this doctrine and discipline. How could you understand this doctrine and discipline? You’re practicing wrongly. I’m practicing rightly. I’m being consistent. You’re not. What should be said first you said last. What should be said last you said first. What you took so long to think out has been refuted. Your doctrine has been overthrown. You’re defeated. Go and try to salvage your doctrine; extricate yourself if you can!’ — he abstains from debates such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.11.0.than.html
I don’t know, I think these words are not fair and true, but I don’t really think @tommit should delete them, even though I disagree with him 100%. Deleting them is a bit over the top, I believe. Let these words speak for themselves.
Not only these posts but the so many pointless topics and debates we usually have here.
Maybe I am an idealist but I reckon that if this forum is to be linked to the name of SuttaCentral.net we better at certain point in time clean it of all the weird noise we usually find here and maybe revert it to and enforce it to be a place for people to discuss translations and to a limited extent doctrinal implications or curiosities of the words being translated.
If SC’s D&D is to become just another internet forum, with its usual amount of harsh speech, polemics and advocacy-based debates, I thing it would be better to detach it from the beautiful project of SuttaCentral.net
Well, this is just my view and to avoid further polemics I already acknowledge I am wrong and defeated!
I think 80% of the pists on these forums can contribute to confusion of new users. The post itself is merely a citation of a Sutta, which is actually a good thing and can help people find out what Dhamma theories are actually too weird to be true (I think you know who I mean). As for the comments, well, tommit cannot even prove that these very words were said by the Buddha, let alone any other words we find in the Nikayas. Besides, his words that NOBODY practices the Dhamma we find in the Suttas, said on the forums where we have so many inspiring and dedicated bhikkhus and bhukkhunis, are utter non-sense unless he can prove he has clairvoyance. His claim that the true Dhamma is corrupted by other participants of these forums is also weird: He may know what the true Dhamma is only if he himself is at least a stream-enterer, which I think any new user can figure out for themselves in a matter of a few minutes.
I mean, there are posts by, say, Ven. Dhammanando, Sujato and Brahmali and those by tommit. I think, even if I were a new user I would be able to know for myself what sounds more plausible. Besides, well, calling people out on their… erm… malarkey can also work pretty well. So long what tommit said sounds about as plausible as me claiming nobody before me, Ilya Zhezlov, knew what the true Christianity means and I have a direct hotline with Jesus (pretty much what Joseph Smith did).
Finally, who knows, maybe tommit will show that his allegations are not groundless, maybe he will present a cogent and highly convincing argument why he is right. If not, then his words are just air shaking. If he does, I think any reasonable person can decide whether it makes any sense or not.
I mean, sure, studying EBTs is important, but if we as a community can help debunking myths and wacky theories around EBTs, it would be even better.
Generally, things do not arise without a cause. The Buddha did not teach causelessness (AN 3.61).
I suppose if a well-intended thread is started and people reply with “ha…ha…ha”, name-calling & other forms of derogatory worldly behaviour, one may come to the conclusions here.
Imo, such behaviour is not indicative of Sutta Central but of cultural behaviour of a non-Buddhist origin which seems common among some Internet Buddhists & fundamentalists (as often observed with Xtian fundamentalists, who believe they will be saved by faith rather than by deeds).
Well said Vstakan. I’m happy to let it stay here if that’s what you guys want. As a mod I feel my responsibility is to represent what this community wants, along with the mod’s ideas of what the forum needs to stay welcoming and safe.
So, happy to leave it for now and rely on all of your (the communities) contributions to indicate your opinions and the direction you want.
Maybe they weren’t exactly welcoming and safe and maybe the right course of action would have been answering with a quote from the Culavedalla sutta about the Nibbana as a final goal of the spiritual practice, but there is a huge difference between calling people out on making unskilful comments and on them being complete Dhamma amateurs corrupting the True Teaching. Even Ven. Sariputta made unskilful comments, and this argument is easy to see and check for everyone. The second one is a much more serious allegation that needs much more serious argumentation.
The moderators are usually not able to see every single post on this forum.
If you see posts that concern you on this forum, to the degree that you think they are really inappropriate, we ask users to flag them as per the Flagging Guidelines so you can bring our attention to them.
Okay, let’s differentiate between ridiculing other people’s opinion and defeating it in a rational discussion, why not. And well, this behaviour may have been over the top (even though I though the first comment by Chansik was hilarious and quite to the point ), but sure, hopefully we will be able to do better than that in the future
Yes… a transgression overcame you in that you were so foolish, so muddle-headed, and so unskilled… But because you see your transgression as such and make amends in accordance with the Dhamma, we accept your confession. For it is a cause of growth in the Dhamma & Discipline of the noble ones when, seeing a transgression as such, one makes amends in accordance with the Dhamma and exercises restraint in the future."
I’m mixed. I can see both @Gabriel_L’s and @Vstakan points. Personally the more discusions I read like this one @tommit started, the more I limit what I read on the forum, and I already do limit quite a bit. I don’t go to other internet forums or social media as I’m just not interested. And here my interest is certainly more what @Gabriel_L suggests:
That being said, I also know there are others who enjoy a wider range of topics and discussions.
Actually, I almost just stopped reading this discussion and certainly wasn’t going to comment until I saw @Cara’s post reaching out to see what others in the communnity think. I really appreciate you @Cara and the other moderators for your care in moderation and all you do!
So my two cents: Yes, I think it has an impact on people who are new to SC discourse (and/or on decisions some new people might make as to whether to get involved at all, especially as they maybe aren’t going to take the time to sift through everything and find those worth reading). In this case, the comment I think is very inappropriate and definitely against the guidelines is this one of @tommit’s: